Does a DM have responsibility?

[Superlyte27]

Bah, dagnabit you bastiches. How dare you create a scenario where I have to agree with something Fnfal says.

 

[scubafied]

After you are DEAD.....you have no rights. New divers look at the DM for guidance.
BY THE BOOK.....BY THE BOOK... That is all I see on here. Where does common sense come into play? New divers need someone to look up to and get advice when needed. And if they have no one else with them that they know.....it should be the DM.

You're exactly right in this statement except you left off the end, the part with the common sense. "And if they have no one else with them that they know.....it should be the DM they hired as their personal guide." If a new, certified diver needs additional assistance or does not feel comfortable on their own, they have 1 of 4 problems I can think of: They either should not have passed their course, need to hire a personal guide to alleviate additional concerns, do a refresher course or cancel the dive. The DM is not your personal bodyguard or babysitter. If you need one, hire one.

 

[DevonDiver]

The DM is not your personal bodyguard or babysitter.

I think that the problem stems from the fact that divers first encounter a DM during their OW training. During that time, the DM is there to generally hold their hand, pamper and protect them.

Having achieved certification, some divers then are unable to divorce themselves from this perception of (one single aspect of) the divemaster's role.

 

[Insta-Gator]

With solid planning, and free pre dive communication, a group of newly qualified divers
is quite capable of acting as it's own DM cooperative, building confidence to the relief
of all, as shared responsibility for each other, will lead to a quicker mastery through critique

OMG, knowone, what a coherent post I completely agree. However, in so many of the "green zone" forums newbies are advised to find a mentor to coach them in their skills development. For the land-locked, vacation diver this could be problematic. And while I am not here to criticize DMs for not being nannies, I would encourage them to think of themselves as the mentors many divers do not have. The less experienced divers will love you forever and refer their friends your way. If the experienced diver doesn't need your assistance, at least you checked and offered.

 

[scottf24]

OMG, knowone, what a coherent post I completely agree. However, in so many of the "green zone" forums newbies are advised to find a mentor to coach them in their skills development. For the land-locked, vacation diver this could be problematic. And while I am not here to criticize DMs for not being nannies, I would encourage them to think of themselves as the mentors many divers do not have. The less experienced divers will love you forever and refer their friends your way. If the experienced diver doesn't need your assistance, at least you checked and offered.

WOW......that is the answer I was looking for!!! I do not have a problem with my diving skills or do I need anyone to hold my hand. I have seen on two different trips where a VERY NEW diver reached out to the DM for encouragement and they just did nothing......they ended up diving without a Buddy......and cut the dives short. They were on there on. I just think that the DM should have reached out to these people and tried to help. But most of you just say IT IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY. And I know that if you have a certification card that you must be well trained......cause we all know that you can't get a card unless you know everything!!!! Reach out and try to help your fellow man/woman.

 

[FlyerQ]

It's been many years since I guided, but I recall a bit of tension between helping a certified diver and extending your liability. I would always spend time during the trip to the site speaking with divers I didn't know. While it was framed as chit-chat, it was an opportunity to size up peoples comfort. Part of it was looking for non-verbal clues, like nervousness or difficulty setting up equipment, and part of it was casual conversation - "It sure is beautiful here, where do you normally dive?" type stuff. It was usually easy to get a perspective on a divers experience from these conversations. I considered this an opportunity to gain insight into which divers might benefit from advice or struggle a little with the dive.

An example of the tension would be encountering a diver certified for several years who took one or two dive trips annually, i.e. someone I would consider generally low experience. When a diver like this would do something I would advise against - for example putting on 22 lbs of weight when 8 - 12 lbs would most likely be sufficient the question was if / how to get involved. As a guide, and a host, I would usually suggest they might be more comfortable if they experimented with using less weight and I'd suggest a number that I thought might work. However, if they didn't act I would never pursue it further as appearing to push someone to take less weight could increase my liability if they had an uncontrolled ascent.

On the other hand, when I did my short bit of assistant instructing (DCS) I would be very clear and direct in my instructions and expectation. A clear challenge is that a new OW diver has just finished a relationship with their dive professional where they received direction and henceforth will likely get advice. This should be made abundantly clear to newly certified divers.

And, of course, I'm not talking about seeing someone do something clearly dangerous in which case I would take appropriate action.

 

[scottf24]

It's been many years since I guided, but I recall a bit of tension between helping a certified diver and extending your liability. I would always spend time during the trip to the site speaking with divers I didn't know. While it was framed as chit-chat, it was an opportunity to size up peoples comfort. Part of it was looking for non-verbal clues, like nervousness or difficulty setting up equipment, and part of it was casual conversation - "It sure is beautiful here, where do you normally dive?" type stuff. It was usually easy to get a perspective on a divers experience from these conversations. I considered this an opportunity to gain insight into which divers might benefit from advice or struggle a little with the dive.

An example of the tension would be encountering a diver certified for several years who took one or two dive trips annually, i.e. someone I would consider generally low experience. When a diver like this would do something I would advise against - for example putting on 22 lbs of weight when 8 - 12 lbs would most likely be sufficient the question was if / how to get involved. As a guide, and a host, I would usually suggest they might be more comfortable if they experimented with using less weight and I'd suggest a number that I thought might work. However, if they didn't act I would never pursue it further as appearing to push someone to take less weight could increase my liability if they had an uncontrolled ascent.

On the other hand, when I did my short bit of assistant instructing (DCS) I would be very clear and direct in my instructions and expectation. A clear challenge is that a new OW diver has just finished a relationship with their dive professional where they received direction and henceforth will likely get advice. This should be made abundantly clear to newly certified divers.

And, of course, I'm not talking about seeing someone do something clearly dangerous in which case I would take appropriate action.

This is all that I am saying a DM should do. This to me is just common sense. But I have seen on several trips......they just did not care. I will take advice from anyone that is willing to offer.....what I do with it is up to me.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

One thing that a diver should also remember. That DM that was in the water during your OW training? He/she was not there for you. One of the first things you learn when you start a Dm course is what their first duty is - the first duty of a DM in a training or class setting is to anticipate and meet the needs of the INSTRUCTOR. Not the students, the instructor. Everything the DM did or appeared to do for you was most likely at the direction on the person teaching the course. Helping you with mask clearing - told to by the instructor to free them up for other students.

 

[TSandM]

I just think that the DM should have reached out to these people and tried to help.

I was going to ask you to define "help", but you gave me an idea with your subsequent post.

On a small boat, with a few divers, I could see the guide perhaps being able to make the rounds and look at everybody's gear and check the amount of weight they are using. I think a really motivated guide might, if he KNEW someone was brand new, make a specific point of checking such things and asking if the diver felt comfortable or needed any additional information to feel good about doing the dive. That's how someone earns his tips

But your comment about "you're own your own" and "cut the dive short" imply to me that you expect some kind of in-water assistance. Remember that the DM is a guide, and his responsibility, such as it is, is spread over all the divers in his group. He is not your buddy, unless you have specifically hired him to be that, in which case, his ONLY responsibility is guiding YOU. It is not the responsibility of the DM to monitor your gas, or to provide you with more gas with which to do the dive -- although I have seen guides do this in some places.

I have never dived with any dive op anywhere that did not either require you to provide a certification number, or require you to sign a form indicating that you had a certification number (unless you are an OW student, in which case your instructor is taking responsibility for you). By doing so, you have indicated that you are trained to dive, and although you may not be familiar with the specific conditions of that dive environment (which IS one of the things I think the DM is responsible for communicating) you should either be able to do the basic things involved in diving (such as assembling your equipment and providing yourself with the correct amount of weight) or you should know enough to ask for advice and assistance, if you require it.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I'm hearing a desire to abdicate some responsibility for your own diving and your own need to be proactive about the dive. If there are things about diving that you feel unsure or tentative about, it's probably a good idea to get some practice or even some additional instruction to shore up those weak spots, rather than to depend on a complete stranger (who has multiple other responsibilities) to fill in the holes.

 

[scottf24]

I was going to ask you to define "help", but you gave me an idea with your subsequent post.

On a small boat, with a few divers, I could see the guide perhaps being able to make the rounds and look at everybody's gear and check the amount of weight they are using. I think a really motivated guide might, if he KNEW someone was brand new, make a specific point of checking such things and asking if the diver felt comfortable or needed any additional information to feel good about doing the dive. That's how someone earns his tips

But your comment about "you're own your own" and "cut the dive short" imply to me that you expect some kind of in-water assistance. Remember that the DM is a guide, and his responsibility, such as it is, is spread over all the divers in his group. He is not your buddy, unless you have specifically hired him to be that, in which case, his ONLY responsibility is guiding YOU. It is not the responsibility of the DM to monitor your gas, or to provide you with more gas with which to do the dive -- although I have seen guides do this in some places.

I have never dived with any dive op anywhere that did not either require you to provide a certification number, or require you to sign a form indicating that you had a certification number (unless you are an OW student, in which case your instructor is taking responsibility for you). By doing so, you have indicated that you are trained to dive, and although you may not be familiar with the specific conditions of that dive environment (which IS one of the things I think the DM is responsible for communicating) you should either be able to do the basic things involved in diving (such as assembling your equipment and providing yourself with the correct amount of weight) or you should know enough to ask for advice and assistance, if you require it.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I'm hearing a desire to abdicate some responsibility for your own diving and your own need to be proactive about the dive. If there are things about diving that you feel unsure or tentative about, it's probably a good idea to get some practice or even some additional instruction to shore up those weak spots, rather than to depend on a complete stranger (who has multiple other responsibilities) to fill in the holes.

OK.....I learn something new everyday. What did I learn today? I learned that I was looking up to the DM because in my eyes he is better trained and experienced than me.This was a mistake. He/she is only there to............brief the site. Nothing more. Does this sum it up? I keep hearing about gear setup and weight and........I NEVER said I wanted someone else touching any of my gear. Nor do I want someone breathing or swimming or blinking for me, as some of you have stated. Most NEW divers are going to look up to all of you DM's....... Sorry, I will never do that again.