Do you have specific advice for posture and anatomy as it relates to trim?

[Ryan Neely]

With your high tank, are you able to turn the first stage upside down (switch all hoses around) to have less of the stage protrude upwards? If I have my MK17 the normal way up, I would hit my stage, once I turned it upside down, I am clear.

Thanks @Divectionist . I think my regulator is already as trim or streamlined as it can be. We're diving an Apeks XTX50 and the majority of the first stage's mass points down toward the cylinder so there isn't more than an inch or so rising above the cylinder's valve.

If you have lead to play with, its nothing more involved than school yard seesaw physics. Holding a 1lb. weight in each hand allows you to shift that much weight up and down your body to see where you naturally stay level.

Thanks @MichaelMc , I had seen a video of someone trying this recently and for whatever reason it didn't connect that I should do this. Perhaps I'll spend a little time in the shallows practicing with this

If your 'trim' pockets are worthless for trim, get some higher up. You need more options than hips or hips+3".

This was my thinking, too, I just haven't pulled the trigger yet. I realize they're inexpensive and might help with my issues but, damn, I've spent a fortune on my kit already this year. I was hoping to spread it out a bit but it seems like the scuba collection man just can't leave me alone.

You can tie a boltsnap or double ender to a couple of small 2-4lbs weights as part of your 18lbs then you can play with moving then around to get the proper trim balance. You can have your buddy or wife move the weights until your balanced while you do your best sky diver statue impression sometimes that is quicker to have an external eye do the balancing.

One you know where you need the trim weights you just need to keep that balance on all your dives.

Thanks @WarrenZ , that helps ... and you're right; there is no doubt that I'm over-thinking things. (Over-thinking tends to be a problem for me.)

Are you diving a Jacket style BCD? In that case all of the weight is concentrated on your weight belt / pockets which is placed on your hips. This will of course make your lower body "sink" down and instead of the flat angle you will get more of a tilt.

Yes, I'm in a Jacket style BCD. Between doing the classroom work in February and my Checkout Dives in May, I did a ton of research and had been all set to just start out with a BP/W setup. However, my wife/buddy was not at all interested (yet) in a BP/W setup and she reminded me that it would be to our advantage if we were each using the same equipment so we knew how the other's gear worked (at least in the beginning while we are still new and learning). That way, if there's a problem, there won't be any fumbling around to help fix a thing. So, Jacket style it is and, honestly, it makes it a nice challenge. I figure if I can master buoyancy and trim in a Jacket BCD then moving to BP/W will be easier (after a slight learning adjustment).

Anyway, it sounds like I need to do some experimentation and then start looking for some trim pouches I place around my body once said experimentation is done. Hopefully this won't be too difficult for a Jacket BCD.

Also 18 pound seems a little excessive, I'm a fairly big guy and with my 5mm i use 12-14 pounds max on AL80. You should consider having a pool / shallow water session and try removing some weight, being over weighted can also cause trim problems.

Thanks. I agree with this as well. We have done several "weight checks" the way the PADI training material suggests (empty BCD, hold a standard breath, float in the water at eye level, etc.), but, because we're diving so shallow right now (the water temps have just climbed above 50° this week) we've been staying pretty shallow so our limiting factor is body temperature, not air consumption. Therefore, we have yet to conduct the same weight check on an empty (i.e., 500 psi remaining) tank.

Could you repeat that?

I do tend to be verbose. It can be a problem.

First, don't worry too much about hands out forwards from your body. Just whatever is comfortable for you. I generally have my fingers interlocked just below my sternum, because that's comfortable for me.

Agreed. I like this position, too. One of our instructors introduced it to me as a means of using my arms as a "rudder" to help me swim up or down depending on position, and this position just seems natural to me.

Secondly, as a couple others have asked, are you diving Jacket or Backplate?

Jacket

Either way, you can try setting your tank forwards(higher/towards your head) a bit to shift some weight without actually moving any weights.

Yes. Right now my tank sits high enough between my shoulders that my regulator touches my head.

Besides those, what is your wetsuit thickness and what fins? It may be possible to lose some "weight" at your feet to help balance out. (i.e. more buoyant fins or thicker booties, or both...)

Aqualung Aquaflex 5mm wetsuit over a Lavacore Fullbody Suit

Oceanic Viper Fins (these are probably heavy fins, but I haven't tested them).

If your trim is nearly there and only slowly rotates when you're static, don't be too tempted to make major overhauls, just small tweaks. You mention that you moved your cylinder position; was this to correct the rotational effect? If so, did it help? Also, are you using a steel or ali cylinder?

Thanks @Graeme Fraser for the reminder to make small adjustments. That's what it's all about, right?

I moved the cylinder position to redistribute some of the weight. Having it higher helped to "push" me down. I definitely went from looking like a seahorse in the water to being more horizontal. For that purpose it did help. It may have also helped slightly with the rotational effect, though there is no empirical data on that--only what it "feels" like to me. I think I'll have my buddy film me next time to get a better sense of what is actually happening.

I'm diving an Aluminum 80.



Thanks, everyone, for trying to help. I tend to want to get things right and pay attention to how I'm progressing (there's a perfectionist part of me that I'm trying to combat a little). I totally appreciate all the tips and feedback. I've definitely got things to try.

 

[rongoodman]

Agreed. I like this position, too. One of our instructors introduced it to me as a means of using my arms as a "rudder" to help me swim up or down depending on position, and this position just seems natural to me.

I find myself lately just keeping my arms crossed over my chest for the most part, unless I'm using a light. Once you get your trim straightened out you won't need a rudder, just rotate a little up or down around your belly as a pivot point and swim in that direction. Being able to rotate a little head down and then back up and away is handy if you've gotten close to some little thing to look at it, also an easy way to begin a controlled buoyant ascent. It really would be easier in a BP/W, though.

 

[mcohen1021]

Try this position, it’s far easier.

I sometimes show my wife that I can maintain this position AND keep up with the group in a drift dive.

No, thats not me in the pic below. lol

 

[MichaelMc]

Examples of 1 lb. weights on bolt snaps, or on bungee/line loops that can be looped around strap or used with double ender (with a smaller loop).

The line is just bungee cord in a loop, you can also use a double ender with a shorter version of it. Both those flap about and could get tangled in other stuff, so not best long term, though the 2-3 lb. versions can fit tight to the strap.
The ingots with bolt snap attached, gorilla tape wrapped pure lead, tuck under rubber bands and clip to a rubber band or a D-ring. Those are rather tidy for normal diving.
Lead Mini Ingot Pure 99.9% ~ 1 Pound + gorilla tape from the hardware store (or tool dip) + cave line or some nylon line + bolt snap.

Once you know where you want the lead, taping it to the plate at the appropriate location is easy, backed up with zip ties. Your options with a jacket may be more limited, their lack of flexibility is what makes it hard.

For weight checks, you know how much your extra air weights based on the PSI, removing that much lead should simulate 500 psi. Then removing a bit more will test if you are over weighted. But you need 3-6 lb. of removable lead in about 1 lb. increments and to still have dexterity to be messing with that and to put everything back in the pockets or on the straps.

Try this position, it’s far easier.

I haven't yet mastered finning forward or backward while in buddha hover. Getting in and out sounds fun, but more work that might scare away the fish.

 

[divad]

Thanks @Divectionist



I do tend to be verbose. It can be a problem.



.

Its nice you have a sense of humor about it.

 

[rongoodman]

Try this position, it’s far easier.

And useful, too.

 

[Ryan Neely]

Its nice you have a sense of humor about it.

I find everything funny. It can be a problem.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

Thanks @Divectionist . I think my regulator is already as trim or streamlined as it can be. We're diving an Apeks XTX50 and the majority of the first stage's mass points down toward the cylinder so there isn't more than an inch or so rising above the cylinder's valve.



Thanks @MichaelMc , I had seen a video of someone trying this recently and for whatever reason it didn't connect that I should do this. Perhaps I'll spend a little time in the shallows practicing with this



This was my thinking, too, I just haven't pulled the trigger yet. I realize they're inexpensive and might help with my issues but, damn, I've spent a fortune on my kit already this year. I was hoping to spread it out a bit but it seems like the scuba collection man just can't leave me alone.



Thanks @WarrenZ , that helps ... and you're right; there is no doubt that I'm over-thinking things. (Over-thinking tends to be a problem for me.)



Yes, I'm in a Jacket style BCD. Between doing the classroom work in February and my Checkout Dives in May, I did a ton of research and had been all set to just start out with a BP/W setup. However, my wife/buddy was not at all interested (yet) in a BP/W setup and she reminded me that it would be to our advantage if we were each using the same equipment so we knew how the other's gear worked (at least in the beginning while we are still new and learning). That way, if there's a problem, there won't be any fumbling around to help fix a thing. So, Jacket style it is and, honestly, it makes it a nice challenge. I figure if I can master buoyancy and trim in a Jacket BCD then moving to BP/W will be easier (after a slight learning adjustment).

Anyway, it sounds like I need to do some experimentation and then start looking for some trim pouches I place around my body once said experimentation is done. Hopefully this won't be too difficult for a Jacket BCD.



Thanks. I agree with this as well. We have done several "weight checks" the way the PADI training material suggests (empty BCD, hold a standard breath, float in the water at eye level, etc.), but, because we're diving so shallow right now (the water temps have just climbed above 50° this week) we've been staying pretty shallow so our limiting factor is body temperature, not air consumption. Therefore, we have yet to conduct the same weight check on an empty (i.e., 500 psi remaining) tank.



I do tend to be verbose. It can be a problem.



Agreed. I like this position, too. One of our instructors introduced it to me as a means of using my arms as a "rudder" to help me swim up or down depending on position, and this position just seems natural to me.



Jacket



Yes. Right now my tank sits high enough between my shoulders that my regulator touches my head.



Aqualung Aquaflex 5mm wetsuit over a Lavacore Fullbody Suit

Oceanic Viper Fins (these are probably heavy fins, but I haven't tested them).



Thanks @Graeme Fraser for the reminder to make small adjustments. That's what it's all about, right?

I moved the cylinder position to redistribute some of the weight. Having it higher helped to "push" me down. I definitely went from looking like a seahorse in the water to being more horizontal. For that purpose it did help. It may have also helped slightly with the rotational effect, though there is no empirical data on that--only what it "feels" like to me. I think I'll have my buddy film me next time to get a better sense of what is actually happening.

I'm diving an Aluminum 80.



Thanks, everyone, for trying to help. I tend to want to get things right and pay attention to how I'm progressing (there's a perfectionist part of me that I'm trying to combat a little). I totally appreciate all the tips and feedback. I've definitely got things to try.

A video will help and I'm sure we'd all be happy to provide constructive feedback. I suspect your trim is probably better than you think, although watching yourself can be a bit like hearing your voice on tape, a bit strange . In the meantime, kudos for putting the effort in and I'm sure it'll pay off. G

 

[Ryan Neely]

I'll have her do some filming on my next dive and report back with a [likely ugly] video. Thanks!

 

[caruso]

Consider the possibility that you are trapping some air on one side of the BCD, and if so it's probably in one shoulder, causing you to roll toward the side with less air. The less air in your BCD the better and the less this will be a problem (if it IS the problem) and you use less air in the BCD when you aren't overweighted.

I've actually used this to my advantage when trying to compensate for uneven ballasting due to carrying a tank mounted pony bottle on one side. Just be rolling a bit I can hear an air bubble rolling around in my BCD back mounted bladder and I can get myself level without necessarily using a 2-3 lb difference in weights from one side to the other.