Do you dive without......

[DrunkenParrot]

Well after diving hard for the last nine years and learning alot along the way, I have a question for everyone. I have meet 3 divers that i have dived with over the years that have been diving since double hoses. All of these people dive simple systems in Florida.......for example, plastic backplate with No B.C., 2" or 2.5" SPG and just a first and second stage, no safe second, no octo. I have asked them about this and most of them responded, we never needed a B.C. nor a second regulator. Hell they only got the SPG because they were tired of second guessing the J valve. So my question to you is..... do you know anyone like this? People who don't use B.C.s or have a safe second or octo or some form of second stage? Just have been wondering this for a while. Is it safe not to use a safe second or octo while diving open water?

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Well after diving hard for the last nine years and learning alot along the way, I have a question for everyone. I have meet 3 divers that i have dived with over the years that have been diving since double hoses. All of these people dive simple systems in Florida.......for example, plastic backplate with No B.C., 2" or 2.5" SPG and just a first and second stage, no safe second, no octo. I have asked them about this and most of them responded, we never needed a B.C. nor a second regulator. Hell they only got the SPG because they were tired of second guessing the J valve. So my question to you is..... do you know anyone like this? People who don't use B.C.s or have a safe second or octo or some form of second stage? Just have been wondering this for a while. Is it safe not to use a safe second or octo while diving open water?

Well... that is how a lot of us started diving. It is how I dove.

BC's and octo's were uncommon where I was diving until the late 70's - early 80's. One of my older tanks still has a J-valve... some of my friends dove double hose, some of us single hose... none of us had octo's. Most, but not all of us had spg's. No computers.

With this equipment, we did dives that were firmly in the "technical" range (deep decompression dives)

Having said all that, I believe that a backup 2nd stage (safe 2nd, octo) is a much easier and safer way to share air than buddy breathing. Most current divers have not been trained to buddy breath. Buddy breathing is not at all hard, but both divers must have practiced it.

As far as BC's? With correct weighting and not-too-thick wetsuits, you can easily dive without a BC. I did so for the majority of my diving. When I returned to diving in 2007, I bought a jacket BC... but I did not like it, and did not find it as secure and comfortable as my old-style plastic backplate and harness, so I switched to a backplate/wing (which I like a lot).

Still... I rarely add air to the wing while diving. I still weight myself pretty much like I did in the pre-BC days, and just don't find that I need to add air to the BC until I pass 50-60 feet; and even then it is more a convenience than a huge necessity.

If you are diving with others, you should have an octo; unless you are ready and able to buddy breath. A BC is certainly helpful. I consider an spg a necessity.

Best wishes.

 

[DrunkenParrot]

Thanks for the quick reply. I feel the same way, I currently us a BP/W and a safe second and love it. I started diving a jacket BC and i will never go back. I know when I was certified, i looked like the guy who walked through the LDS and everything stuck to me because my instructor said that I needed all these things........ I just like talking to the older divers who have been diving since the beginning and how they approach diving. I have learned alot from them, and that is what brought me to post this. I just seems while I study becoming more streamline and efficient while diving, the others just dive "Old school" and really enjoy it. So are we over thinking diving and not enjoying the basics? While keeping it simple has been there since the beginning of diving and the diving industry changed Scuba into a "must have" gear monster? Its late and I have had a few to many Red Stripes so my post might not make sense........

 

[Chugwhump]

Red Stripe!
It's Beer!
Yay Beer!
Helping white men dance since 1963!

OK now seriously,
I do not know of any vintage style commando divers here in SoFla, but I am sure they are here.
I started diving back in the old horse collar days back in '77.
I do not miss those days
I am a "buddy diver" and kind of a gadget guy to a point.
I prefer to continue the evolution.
I have no issue with folks that like it old skool. Ultra lean just is not my style for 4+ hour shore dives with a camera, speargun, bug gear, and a 10 pound bag of lobsters without claws.
Chug
Likes modern conveniences.

 

[herman]

I dive that way quite often. Not because I started that way (started diving in 92) but rather grew into it as I learned about the old ways. I found I had little need for a BC as my skills and weighting improved and I like the feeling. With proper weighting you do not need a BC unless you are wearing a fairly thick wetsuit, otherwise if you "need" a BC, you are not correctly weighted. Remember, it is a BC- (buoyancy COMPENSATOR) not an OC (overweighting compensator)...wet suit compression and air use from a tank are the only things you are compensating for. With a thin wetsuit that works out to maybe +/- 2 or 3 lbs if you are properly weighted. That amount is easy to deal with lung volume alone. There are times when tech diving a BC is a must but that is not what we are discussing here. When forced to use a BC (dive ops rules) or times when I think it's a good idea like way off shore, it gets stripped of air on decent and never gets touched until I surface again. If you think a BP/wing is streamlined....and that is a debatable issue in itself...you should try with no wing, the difference is very noticeable.
If you would like to see some of it in action, there is a big vintage event at Portage Quarry (Ohio) this weekend. There will be a lot of vintage divers there including at least 5 or 6 off this board that I know of. There are times the modern stuff is a good idea but diving the old way with other experienced (i.e.- know buddy breathing and are properly weighted) diver is no less safe, more than likely more safe because they actually know how to dive as opposed to depending on their gear to get them home. Before writing it off as just old guys being hardheaded, find someone to teach you how and give it a try, you may find it appeals to you as well or at least you will have an understanding of why we do it. And I can promise you it will improve your diving skills.

 

[Splitlip]

I have friends who just never bothered embracing today's technology. Don't even own BC's.

I still dive "without" on occasion.

 

[Nemrod]

Well after diving hard for the last nine years and learning alot along the way, I have a question for everyone. I have meet 3 divers that i have dived with over the years that have been diving since double hoses. All of these people dive simple systems in Florida.......for example, plastic backplate with No B.C., 2" or 2.5" SPG and just a first and second stage, no safe second, no octo. I have asked them about this and most of them responded, we never needed a B.C. nor a second regulator. Hell they only got the SPG because they were tired of second guessing the J valve. So my question to you is..... do you know anyone like this? People who don't use B.C.s or have a safe second or octo or some form of second stage? Just have been wondering this for a while. Is it safe not to use a safe second or octo while diving open water?

The question you ask, is it safe to dive open water without a safe second for your buddy or OOA diver, well, what if you are solo as well?

Yes, it is safe, yes I know divers like you speak of, I am one of them and there are more of us than you might think. "Safe" is a relative term, in comparison to what? IMO, your systems should match those of your dive buddies or at least you should all be familiar with each others equipment and what to do if this or that happens including extracting an OOA diver via buddy breathing if there is no alternate second. But, for a group of divers, such as I often dive with who are all very independent, experienced or if you are solo, then yes, it is safe.

Last summer, I swam a mile and a half offshore WPB, solo, no BC, no SPG, no nothing but my tank, plastic plate, Mistral single stage double hose. I had a blast and was in the water for several hours. I did tow a surface float for my flag in case I needed to rest. Was it safe?--Yes, for me it was, for you, I cannot answer.

However, the safe second/octopus is a proven system that requires only a minimal increase in system complexity/expense to offset reduced diver training (buddy breathing) to increase diver safety.

Yes, trained on a double hose, before there were BCs or octopus or even before the wide spread use of the spg, yes, indeed, I can safely complete even deep dives without any supporting equipment other than a tank and a regulator and that regulator is still, often as not, a double hose. The double hose regulators like the USD Royal Aqua Master breath and perform on par with modern regulations, are simple and easy to set up and are exceedingly reliable. Another even more reliable regulator, possibly the most reliable regulator would be a USD Mistral single stage, it has only a few moving parts and no O ring seals, super reliable regulator.

N

 

[Stu S.]

I use modern gear, but the old ways have effected my perspective. After using a $53 Healthways regulator and an old plastic backpack for years, I'm not enamored by the greatest latest offerings. They are just so-what.

The best invention in diving over the past 33 years is the plastic zipper.

 

[fnfalman]

Old school is cool. Looking at photos of old timers and how streamlined they are. Looking at the typical diver nowadays (including DIR type)...we look like a bunch of bloated whales.

 

[Crush]

Having said all that, I believe that a backup 2nd stage (safe 2nd, octo) is a much easier and safer way to share air than buddy breathing. Most current divers have not been trained to buddy breath. Buddy breathing is not at all hard, but both divers must have practiced it.

Some time ago I read a "transcript" of a conversation between an old diver and a young DM. It went something like this:

DM: Why don't you have an octo?
old guy: Don't need one.
DM: What if I am your buddy and I run out of air?
old guy: We buddy breathe.
DM: What if I don't know how to buddy breathe?
old guy: You die.