DM Internships

[DaleC]

Sadly, there are positions for about 0.001% of them. With a heavy supply of candidates, DM's are never going to be retiring at 50 to live in a villa on the French Riviera. And with all those people who want to try to break into the profession, there will always be a lot who would do an unpaid internship.

Aren't you guys glad that you (mostly) belong to an association that doesn't care whether they flood the market with new professionals willing to work for free or not. Wonder when the association of professional diver instuctors will worry about taking care of it's current members instead of turning a quick buck by deluding the next crop of uneducated students?

BTW: In other industries those unpaid workers would be called scabs and would not be tolerated.

 

[DaleC]

I just also have a lot of business experience so I am realistic and understand the owner's point of view. Incidentally, I would love it if I were paid very well and there was no competition for work but it's just a fact of life that so many people want into this business that no one will get rich.

If you had a lot of business experience you would probably understand that building a business model that relies on unpaid labour is not really a self sustaining proposition. In fact, I think it would be called a business waiting to fail. But anyways, glad to see you have such low expectations, it seems your professional association is working hard on your behalf. Keep paying those dues!

 

[vladimir]

Aren't you guys glad that you (mostly) belong to an association that doesn't care whether they flood the market with new professionals willing to work for free or not. Wonder when the association of professional diver instuctors will worry about taking care of it's current members instead of turning a quick buck by deluding the next crop of uneducated students?

In other words, some sort of cartel or union to limit free entry into the labor market. This worked for years for the AMA and for labor unions in the United States. Easy access to overseas markets and mobility of labor makes it a less relevant strategy today, but it might work in some localities.

BTW: In other industries those unpaid workers would be called scabs and would not be tolerated.

I think the terminology is reserved for people who refuse to join a union, work in defiance of a union picket line, or work for lower than union scale.

If you had a lot of business experience you would probably understand that building a business model that relies on unpaid labour is not really a self sustaining proposition. In fact, I think it would be called a business waiting to fail.

As I alluded to earlier, businesses that offer internships--unpaid or otherwise--are usually not relying on that labor, just taking advantage of it because it's cheap and available.

 

[DaleC]

I have a lot of business experience, and this conclusion is not apparent to me. As long as there is a steady supply of qualified candidates willing to volunteer their services--and it seems that may be the case--then there's no reason to believe the business model isn't sustainable.

Well, actually, I suppose it could even be rather self sustaining (for everybody except dive instructors) if you are also the one pumping out the candidates who wind up spending thousands of dollars for the honour of working for free However, I think if you run an organization that relies on free labour you should be considered a charity and not a business.

I probably came off a little harsh there but I really can't fathom this attitude that some professional divers have that it is ok to pay thousands of dollars to become "qualified" just so you can work for low to no pay. What the h_ll is the point? In every other professional association I've ever encountered the "association" tries to work for its members benefit and not to create poverty environments for them by saturating the work force. What's PADI's position on this sort of thing?

 

[vladimir]

However, I think if you run an organization that relies on free labour you should be considered a charity and not a business.

Or a southern plantation.

Of course, the difference is this labor is not coerced, it's voluntary. To me the remedy seems clear: don't enter into a profession that people are willing to perform for free, especially one with fairly low barriers to entry.

 

[DaleC]

In other words, some sort of cartel or union to limit free entry into the labor market. This worked for years for the AMA and for labor unions in the United States. Easy access to overseas markets and mobility of labor makes it a less relevant strategy today, but it might work in some localities.

I don't know about a cartel or a union but I do wonder what role a professional association should play in a situation like this. It seems pretty obvious that the OP is seeking 2 unpaid positions on a rotating monthly basis to do a lot of work that should otherwise be performed by a paid employee. If dive instruction is an industry, and DM's and instructors are professionals, and they belong to a professional association, how is their association safe guarding their livelihood? I think there is a huge conflict of interest when the association that is supposed to support its members is also the agency that is over saturating the market with desperate workers. We always talk about standards in dive training but what about standards as they are applied to the treatment of DM's and Instructors in their workplace? Who is standing up for them if not their professional association?

I think the terminology is reserved for people who refuse to join a union, work in defiance of a union picket line, or work for lower than union scale.

I was thinking of union busting in which an employer brings in low paid labour to supplant higher paid employees. In this case unpaid labour is being used to do what is clearly supposed to be paid labour; thus putting two qualified DM's out of work. I wonder how secure the OP's paid DM's (if there are any) feel about voicing concerns in their workplace???

Anyways, not arguing against you; I agree with the sentiment expressd in your post above.

 

[Zippsy]

I was wondering when the PADI bashing would start. So tell me Dale, how do other associatations convince divers to not want to be professionals? If your answer is that it just makes it much harder to get to that status, then your association has to convice every diver with a dream that they should only try to become a professional with the most difficult association. That should work. Or not. It's not associations that are "flooding the market". It is divers who want to dive for a living. The only way you can stop that is to convince the dreamers that diving is no fun at all. That should be easy, huh?

 

[wadedeeper]

OK...ZIPPSY...please Zip it.

Just because you understood by reading the description doesn't mean that a new DM or instructor might also understand. Many are so new to this industry that they might unknowingly walk into this thinking it might be a great opportunity. I think what Airbornediver is doing is accurately explaining what they are really doing to help educate those that might not realize the real info. Why you feel its necessary to dog on them for stating what may seem obvious to you is beyond me.

Shops hire DMs, AIs, and Instructors to do what they do. Boats Hire the same people to Divemaster a boat. Just because this place wants to get certified DMs or Instructors for free and call it some lame "internship" is both sad and misleading...not to mention pure exploitation.

I would either bet you know this and are just acting like a idiot for the sake of starting an arguement, or you are likely affiliated with the same group that posted the stupid post and are trying to help get free labor...either way...time to zip it and let others protect the less informed from making a bad choice that could cost them.

 

[wadedeeper]

Aren't you guys glad that you (mostly) belong to an association that doesn't care whether they flood the market with new professionals willing to work for free or not.

LOL...wow...Dale...um...have you ever heard of College? or maybe Tradeschools? Well believe it or not, they teach students a trade and keep teaching every few months...in fact its how they operate and stay a float. Colleges teach subjects that are overly saturated like school teachers which are all being told to go abroad now since there are soooo many out of work. One college even tells the newly credentialed teachers to teach english in other countries because they won't get jobs in the states right now....but it doesnt stop them from teaching these would be teachers. I know a few tradeschools that even train mechanics and pump out so many per year they alone flooded the marketplace making finding a job close to impossible.

So how about we all just stop teaching people to help secure our jobs and earn higher pay...stupid argument Dale. I got into Computers and earned a degree and multiple certifications. However, so did another million people that year and jobs where scarce. Should I cry foul because my college didn't help me secure a better higher paying job for me? please....spare me the BS.

People get into diving because its the idea of teaching on an island somewhere that entices people to want to get out of what they currently do and into what they perceive as a less stressful and better job. I for one became an instructor to teach occasionally and offset my scuba spending...and I wouldn't expect my agency to prevent people from learning any more than I expect colleges to stop teaching...so please refrain from making silly remarks like the one above...it hurts me to think you might be serious.

 

[TMHeimer]

[QUOTE=wadedeeper;

So how about we all just stop teaching people to help secure our jobs and earn higher pay...stupid argument Dale. I got into Computers and earned a degree and multiple certifications. However, so did another million people that year and jobs where scarce. Should I cry foul because my college didn't help me secure a better higher paying job for me? please....spare me the BS.

Yes, of course. Can't blame the college or agency for scarcity of jobs. Same thing with school teacher jobs. Note I used "jobs" instread of "profession". Symantics I know, but "profession" in my mind always had at least something to do with salary-like doctors and lawyers. Some teachers make the same as sanitation workers. Where does that put being a dive pro?