DM blew me off

[TSandM]

You know, what I take away again and again from so many of these threads is that a great many problems that arise during a dive could have been prevented entirely by a little more time spent on the boat, or on land, BEFORE the dive. In both the OP's case, and the one just above, the divers assumed that the DM was their buddy, or was at least going to accompany them to the surface. The DM appears not to have understood that, and certainly hadn't bought into it, judging from his behavior.

People need to realize that a group leader is a GROUP leader -- depending on the dive op, they are charged with more or less responsibility for monitoring the entire group, keeping them together, keeping them on the structure, and getting them back to the boat. Unless it is SPECIFICALLY discussed ahead of time, the dive leader is nobody's buddy. I do agree that, if a leader is aware that he has a diver down to 10 bar, he should take some kind of action to make sure that diver gets to the surface safely. But it was the diver's responsibility not to get to 10 bar in the first place!

If you are alone on a dive, ASK who you can buddy up with. If nobody wants to take you as a buddy, TALK to the dive leader about that, and make sure he either understands you will be expecting to dive with him, or have him set you up with somebody else. Don't get in the water until this is sorted out and you know who will be diving with you and who will be ascending with you. If the dive op sends single divers to the surface when they get low on gas, you should know that and be okay with it before you dive.

All of the problems in the original story, and in the subsequent story, would have been non-issues if the questions had been raised in air, where people can talk about them . . .

 

[ScubaInChicago]

If he/she needs to bar the diver from diving then so be it and I have nothing against that but if they do allow the diver to go down and then allow them to get to 10 bar, well that I think is unforgivable.

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

There's another quote out there about being a stroke and death or something along those lines. Either way, where's the responsibility of the OP to not put the DM's life in danger TWICE!



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[Bratface]

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

There's another quote out there about being a stroke and death or something along those lines. Either way, where's the responsibility of the OP to not put the DM's life in danger TWICE!


I agree with the second statement. I had an inexperienced (about 35 dives), clueless diver run very low on air and approach me with his pressure gauge showing only a few hundred pounds. Certainly not enough to get to the surface by himself. I really had no choice but to give him my regulator and took him up. We ate lunch together and I talked to him about safety, responsibility, and my concerns over my safety and the position he had put me in. He never could explain why he didn't signal a half tank to the divemaster. He did ask me if I would dive with him again. I told him no, if I don't like you enough to kiss you on the lips, I can't put my life at risk to save yours.


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[Oldbear]

He did ask me if I would dive with him again. I told him no, if I don't like you enough to kiss you on the lips, I can't put my life at risk to save yours.

That is a good one...

 

[InTheDrink]

You know, what I take away again and again from so many of these threads is that a great many problems that arise during a dive could have been prevented entirely by a little more time spent on the boat, or on land, BEFORE the dive. In both the OP's case, and the one just above, the divers assumed that the DM was their buddy, or was at least going to accompany them to the surface. The DM appears not to have understood that, and certainly hadn't bought into it, judging from his behavior.

People need to realize that a group leader is a GROUP leader -- depending on the dive op, they are charged with more or less responsibility for monitoring the entire group, keeping them together, keeping them on the structure, and getting them back to the boat. Unless it is SPECIFICALLY discussed ahead of time, the dive leader is nobody's buddy. I do agree that, if a leader is aware that he has a diver down to 10 bar, he should take some kind of action to make sure that diver gets to the surface safely. But it was the diver's responsibility not to get to 10 bar in the first place!

If you are alone on a dive, ASK who you can buddy up with. If nobody wants to take you as a buddy, TALK to the dive leader about that, and make sure he either understands you will be expecting to dive with him, or have him set you up with somebody else. Don't get in the water until this is sorted out and you know who will be diving with you and who will be ascending with you. If the dive op sends single divers to the surface when they get low on gas, you should know that and be okay with it before you dive.

All of the problems in the original story, and in the subsequent story, would have been non-issues if the questions had been raised in air, where people can talk about them . . .

Whilst I wish this was the world we live in it's not.

Training standards are generally dire, especially the PADI glorified DSD variety. Ops and shops are happy to sell this. PADI are happy to sell this crap.

While the people that sell the **** training are also leading the diving then the onus is on them to stop ppl dying. It is a complete wonder to me it doesn't happen much more frequently given how low they've dropped the bar.

---------- Post added March 14th, 2013 at 10:22 PM ----------

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

There's another quote out there about being a stroke and death or something along those lines. Either way, where's the responsibility of the OP to not put the DM's life in danger TWICE!



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Read my previous post. As long as we're training ppl like **** for a quick buck then it's these agencies ppl and their affiliates to try to mitigate the risks that their inadequate training creates. Thankfully most do. Any DM that is so ****e as to not know they have a diver at 10 bar I wouldn't snorkel with. Come on. This is the basics.

---------- Post added March 14th, 2013 at 10:24 PM ----------

That is a good one...

Presumably this doesn't apply to necropheliacs

 

[gmanstan]

Read my previous post. As long as we're training ppl like **** for a quick buck then it's these agencies ppl and their affiliates to try to mitigate the risks that their inadequate training creates. Thankfully most do. Any DM that is so ****e as to not know they have a diver at 10 bar I wouldn't snorkel with. Come on. This is the basics.

I would have had a little more sympathy if the OP didnt signal 50 bar(over 700psi) ,then continue until 10 bar(less than 150psi) acting as if it was the DMs fault.When you signal your low & get no response look to the direction the bubbles are going and follow at a slow pace he had plenty of time/air to reach safety stop and surface.Why anyone would stay under and suck their tank dry is beyond me.

 

[Anna G]

I would have had a little more sympathy if the OP didnt signal 50 bar(over 700psi) ,then continue until 10 bar(less than 150psi) acting as if it was the DMs fault.When you signal your low & get no response look to the direction the bubbles are going and follow at a slow pace he had plenty of time/air to reach safety stop and surface.Why anyone would stay under and suck their tank dry is beyond me.

Honestly, beyond me too. This part, about the 2nd dive, especially:

As we continued along I expected the DM at any moment to do something about my low air situation-but he just kept going and I started to get a sinking feeling that the guy was blowing me off and now what was I going to do. I started thinking about what was I going to do if I ran out of air. The other divers were close by so I could signal to one of them and use their reserve regulator, or I figured we were not too deep--about 12m--and I thought I could make it to the surface doing a rapid ascent.

OP was actively making plans for running out of air O__o Instead of starting a normal ascent, his plan was to...wait until he reached a crisis situation, then do an emergency ascent. I don't care how undertrained you are, if you're a mentally competent adult that line of thinking is just insane.

But what is ALSO beyond me is that the DM did not appear to address OP's issues on the first dive, suggest a plan...erm, TELL him to surface on the next dive when he got to x bar. And remember, this wasn't just some random dive shop that trusted the OP's c-card in good faith; it was the shop that certified him after talking him into a bare approximation of a PADI course. They knew exactly how crappy their instruction was and what kind of competence they could expect from a diver certified by them, on his very first post-cert dive.

So yeah, I think OP should indeed take more responsibility, especially for his second dive, for failing to address the OOA issue with the DM. But the shop's DM is to blame too, IMO. The whole op sounds shoddy as hell.

 

[Scuba_Noob]

I noticed that this guy was completely different from the female I dove with earlier. He never pointed out anything other than a conch which happened to be directly below our descent. I stayed close to the DM assuming him to be my buddy. I noticed that he never looked back at the group to determine if everyone was still there nor did he question anyone's air situation. I grabbed his fin to get his attention when I was down to 1000 psi and he signaled OK back to me and we continued @ about 60' depth.

When I was down to about 700 psi I really started to wonder when the dive was going to end as he showed no signs of it coming to an end at that point. Finally when I was at 500 psi I attracted the attention of another diver who happened to be wearing a computer and told her what my pressure was and she indicated that I should swim with her and we ascended to 20' and started a safety stop when I was @ about 300 psi. I finished the dive with slightly more than 200 psi.

I learned something from this for sure, first, I refused to dive with that DM from that point onwards but secondly not to assume that the DM is assuming the same thing as myself, in this case that he was my buddy. I believe he felt that he was on his own and so was I.

Same thing as the original poster. You're responsible for yourself in the end.

In diving, you don't just expect something; you confirm it - this is your life. You expected that the DM would be the same as your previous one. However, in the future, you should confirm the dive plan with the DM, make sure he's your buddy, and make sure you're on the same page as to the dive plan (direction, max depth, safety stop pressure, ascent pressure, speed, and so forth).

You need to set your own personal limits. My personal limit is to start ascending to 40ft or higher at approximately 1000psi, start ascending to safety stop depth or higher at around 750psi, and surface with at least 400psi. I think of it as not just my air but in case my buddy has an air problem. Set your personal limits and convey them to your buddy.

The main conclusion is: These problems stem from lack of communication and lack of proper dive planning.
The second conclusion is: In the end, the responsibility for being a safe diver is on the diver.

It's tough when you're new and still getting comfortable. But work on it to become a less dependent diver.

 

[antattack]

(Frowny Nod)

As a newish DM, I'll take away the following points:

* Discuss the plan for low air diver with the team, before the dive.
* Evaluate individual divers on the team before we get in the water- find clarity where divers are inexperienced and fill in the gaps as possible.
* Identify the divers who are likely to deviate from training and the plan.
* Excuse unprepared divers from the dive.

I haven't had to excuse an unprepared diver yet, so maybe training is generally good?

 

[Tanks]

There's lots of blame to throw around on the part of everyone involved. This has been covered extensively and I blame the tooth fairy.

Congratulations! on telling your first DM/buddy to pound sand, preserving your life. If you keep diving you'll probably do the same to other buddies you meet on the dive boat, or are paired up with by the crew. This is a great lesson about diving with a buddy or dive leader of unknown competence, despite the certification. "Trust but verify."-Ronald Reagan