Diving Without certification...

[Diver0001]

My thoughts:

- everyone has a first time some time.
- everyone makes their first 9 or 10 dives (min 5 in a pool and 4 outside) without certification.

If you really break it down, all an intro dive is, is telling people

- clear your ears and don't hold your breath
- follow me
- any questions?

The whole DSD is designed to do exactly what the op is describing. Just get the gear on and get wet with an experienced buddy. If the buddy in the OP's first post were a DM or an instructor then we'd all be saying "good idea, go for it". In reality, what the guy is suggesting doesn't sound weird to me.

10-15ft is a perfect depth to do this in and assuming that his buddy, who has been "diving for years" has at least as much experience as the average DM then I don't really see the big issue. You might open a bit of a legal pandora's box if something goes terribly wrong but all things created equal I'd look at it as an opportunity as much as a risk.

There's one big caveat to this, though. The buddy can be highly experienced and still be an idiot. There isn't enough information in the OP to tell what kind of diver they are but I'd say to the OP.... not all "experienced" divers know what they're doing. Don't get in the water with him unless you're *sure* he's capable of supervising a rank beginner. Not all experienced divers are up to this.

R..

 

[LowVizWiz]

Now I'm a pretty decent swimmer, and do plenty of spearfishing free diving, but with scuba diving, its not as simple as throwing on your mask and fins and jump in..

Even though it is shallow water, what are your guys thoughts on this?

I think that if you're a free diver as you say, you could just free dive along with him and be done with it!

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

I keep seeing a trend in many of these responses. I keep seeing that Discover Scuba divers are not certified and survive the experience and that everyone was uncertified once during their first 4-5 dives and they survived. The problem is that that's not relevant to this question. Those people were monitored closely by DMs and instructors who are trained and experienced in rescue procedures, teaching methods and can usually recognize problems before they arise. The students are also prepared in the classroom and at least have knowledge of the risks they are taking before getting in the water. Comparing a DSD or first dive of a certification course to someone who is not under the supervision of a dive pro and has no instruction in the risks involved is like comparing apples to oranges. It's not the same thing at all.

It's up to you whether or not you do this but understand that you are taking a huge risk. You have not been taught any emergency procedures and even more importantly, you have not practiced any emergency procedures. You also have not experienced scuba in a controlled pool setting but are risking the first experience while in the open water. In my opinion you are asking for trouble.

Wait and take the course. That reef is still going to be there in a few weeks after you are certified. There is nothing on that reef worth risking your life.

 

[elan]

At 15 ft, you are at less than one added atm of pressure, so if worse came to worse, you could dump the gear, and head to the surface, with very minimal risk of an over expansion injury.

Seeing as you free-dive, you should be comfortable in the water, so that's to your benefit.

The risk of getting the injury is the one of the greatest in the top 15 ft. Enough to blow up your lungs, especially for a free-diver who is used to holding the breath

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

There's one big caveat to this, though. The buddy can be highly experienced and still be an idiot. There isn't enough information in the OP to tell what kind of diver they are but I'd say to the OP.... not all "experienced" divers know what they're doing. Don't get in the water with him unless you're *sure* he's capable of supervising a rank beginner. Not all experienced divers are up to this.

R..

How does a rank beginner qualify the person capable of supervising him? Some people with no knowledge or experience in diving might accept someone to watch over them just because they've been "diving for years". I would not trust an inexperienced person to pick someone based on their own idea of what qualifies a good supervisor. Certification as a dive leader (DM, AI, instructor) is evidence that the cardholder has been qualified and checked off by professional diving agencies to lead and instruct scuba. I would choose to trust those agencies and the industry standards that define a dive leader instead of trusting someone foreign to the sport.

 

[Diver0001]

How does a rank beginner qualify the person capable of supervising him? Some people with no knowledge or experience in diving might accept someone to watch over them just because they've been "diving for years". I would not trust an inexperienced person to pick someone based on their own idea of what qualifies a good supervisor. Certification as a dive leader (DM, AI, instructor) is evidence that the cardholder has been qualified and checked off by professional diving agencies to lead and instruct scuba. I would choose to trust those agencies and the industry standards that define a dive leader instead of trusting someone foreign to the sport.

You're thinking too hard.

I know a lot of DM's a lot of instructors and a lot of experienced divers... and believe me, there is overlap.

You know diagrams like this one, right:

I'm not saying his buddy is necessarily in a position to supervise him well and I went out of my way to say that. But I'm not precluding the possibility either. You don't know the buddy, I don't know the buddy, so neither of us can really draw any conclusions about that.

I'll follow you as far as agreeing that due to their experience (and sometimes the training) good DM's and instructors have a uncanny "radar" for problems that the average diver may not have. On the other hand, I know a few who really could use supervision themselves.

But having said that, I still don't think that what the buddy is suggesting sounds overly weird.

Who would you trust? A serious diver with 500 dives in local conditions who wants to take a friend to 10-15ft in a place he knows well, or a DM with 60 dives who got certified in 8 days in Curacao while spending 1/2 of that time looking at bikini fishes and wondering if they could get off an hour early to get a head start on the chicks at the pup.

I suspect I know what answer you will give but both of those descriptions are possible... In fact, one of them was based on the experience of a friend of mine (who introduced me to the term bikini fish)....

R..

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

You're thinking too hard.

I know a lot of DM's a lot of instructors and a lot of experienced divers... and believe me, there is overlap.

You know diagrams like this one, right:

I'm not saying his buddy is necessarily in a position to supervise him well and I went out of my way to say that. But I'm not precluding the possibility either. You don't know the buddy, I don't know the buddy, so neither of us can really draw any conclusions about that.

I'll follow you as far as agreeing that due to their experience (and sometimes the training) good DM's and instructors have a uncanny "radar" for problems that the average diver may not have. On the other hand, I know a few who really could use supervision themselves.

But having said that, I still don't think that what the buddy is suggesting sounds overly weird.

Who would you trust? A serious diver with 500 dives in local conditions who wants to take a friend to 10-15ft in a place he knows well, or a DM with 60 dives who got certified in 8 days in Curacao while spending 1/2 of that time looking at bikini fishes and wondering if they could get off an hour early to get a head start on the chicks at the pup.

I suspect I know what answer you will give but both of those descriptions are possible... In fact, one of them was based on the experience of a friend of mine (who introduced me to the term bikini fish)....

R..

I understand and agree that there is overlap and I understand and agree that certification as an instructor or DM does not always mean you are good at what you do. My point is that the person deciding who is qualified to lead and be responsible for an uncertified diver should not be the uncertified diver solely. That's why we have training agencies that qualify people based on industry-accepted standards.

 

[Diver0001]

Agreed.

Well it looks like we're back on the same page now.

R..

 

[scubagoldmc]

I'll approach this from a different angle. In the other thread the OP started (on equipment) he said something to the effect that his contract had prohibitions on doing things that are "dangerous" and he asked if SCUBA could be considered in this category (I think tongue in cheek). Now if something did happen on a dive with friends while he was not certified I think they could make a very strong point that he did participate in a "dangerous" activity which his contract prohibited.

I vote for waiting for certification.

Mike

 

[FireInMyBones]

Attempts to locate an "intensive training programme" were equally fruitless, despite persistent rumors that they existed at one time.

No Kidding.