Diving War Graves

[dweeb]

Just because things are don’t all the time, does not make them right. The military wrecks remain property of their respective governments under maritime law..

To quote the US Navy: “
Visitors to these sites are invited to look but
not touch, alter, enter, or disturb these remains
without permission from the NHC-UA”
.

Yeah, and I'm sure the Soviets would say the same thing to the crew of the Glomar Explorer. Beyond the 12 mile limit, no nation has a right to say 'boo,' and our own navy waves that in the faces of other nations almost daily.

IMHO maritime war graves should be visited in the same fashion as land based war graves. By that I mean with respect, not disturbing or taking anything.

Tell that to biscuit7 - she digs up graves for a living.

To continue with the comparison: At land based war graves you walk on the path or grass, and do not open or disturb the grave or go inside the graves. For SCUBA divers that means you dive the wreck and respectfully view the wreck form the outside only, you do not enter the wreck.

One word, pasley - mausoleum. Alternatively, Lenin's tomb.
They're dead bodies; empty husks; nobody there anymore. Get over it.

 

[miketsp]

Personally, I don't find it appetizing to consider eating crabs or other carrion feeders taken off a wreck containing human remains. I prefer a few more degrees of separation from cannibalism.

It's all a question of degree. Do you know the Yorkshire unofficial anthem?:

Where hast tha been since I saw thee, I saw thee?
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Where hast tha been since I saw thee, I saw thee?
Where hast tha been since I saw thee?
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then thee shall catch thy death of cold, death of cold.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then thee shall catch thy death of cold, death of cold.
Then thee shall catch thy death of cold.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then we shall have to bury thee, bury thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then we shall have to bury thee, bury thee.
Then we shall have to bury thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then worms 'l come and eat thee up, eat thee up.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then worms 'l come and eat thee up, eat thee up.
Then worms 'l come and eat thee up.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then ducks 'l come and eat up worms, eat up worms
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then ducks 'l come and eat up worms, eat up worms
Then ducks 'l come and eat up worms.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then we shall come and eat up ducks, eat up ducks.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then we shall come and eat up ducks, eat up ducks
Then we shall come and eat up ducks.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then we shall all have eaten thee, eaten thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then we shall all have eaten thee, eaten thee.
Then we shall all have eaten thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

 

[jdelprete]

this
though, thee, thar, that was painful reading, lol

It's all a question of degree. Do you know the Yorkshire unofficial anthem?:

Where hast tha been since I saw thee, I saw thee?
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Where hast tha been since I saw thee, I saw thee?
Where hast tha been since I saw thee?
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then thee shall catch thy death of cold, death of cold.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then thee shall catch thy death of cold, death of cold.
Then thee shall catch thy death of cold.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then we shall have to bury thee, bury thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then we shall have to bury thee, bury thee.
Then we shall have to bury thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then worms 'l come and eat thee up, eat thee up.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then worms 'l come and eat thee up, eat thee up.
Then worms 'l come and eat thee up.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then ducks 'l come and eat up worms, eat up worms
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then ducks 'l come and eat up worms, eat up worms
Then ducks 'l come and eat up worms.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then we shall come and eat up ducks, eat up ducks.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then we shall come and eat up ducks, eat up ducks
Then we shall come and eat up ducks.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

Then we shall all have eaten thee, eaten thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
Then we shall all have eaten thee, eaten thee.
Then we shall all have eaten thee.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On Ilkley Moor baht'at.
On I-i-i-ilkley Moor baht'a-a-a-t.

 

[dweeb]

We DO create parks where great battles were fought and actually encourage people to come and visit

We only do that because we've been blessed to have very few great battles on our soil. If you did that in Europe, or the Middle East, there'd be no place left for the living.

 

[jdelprete]

very intersting point dweeb and spot on.

We only do that because we've been blessed to have very few great battles on our soil. If you did that in Europe, or the Middle East, there'd be no place left for the living.

 

[miketsp]

On dweeb's line of thinking, go and talk to a building site supervisor in Rome or Athens. It's almost impossible to dig foundations without uncovering remains and if they publicise finding anything, work stops while the archeologists come in and remove them slowly. So most times they just turn a blind eye to what they're digging up & removing.

 

[dweeb]

I am not against diving war graves but sometimes relatives of those lost do and I think there wishes should supersede those of recreational divers.

WHY?

I Also think that a lot of the opposition to diving on them is because there are always the few that will disturber the site and steal artifacts,

I know a guy who had the AUDACITY to take a dead person's kidney. How is that less personal than a piece of flatware off the ship someone just so happened to dive on.

I do all my shopping at estate sales. Many times, they're in the home of an old person who lived alone, with no relatives, and was dead three days before the mail piling up prompted the police to break down the door. The liquidator goes in, often under court order, sets up shop, and sells everything in the house, taking a 20% cut. I guess all these objectors think that's positively scandalous. Me, I buy things from dead people. Sometimes, when I dive, I see dead people. I'm well adjusted enough, and free enough of superstition that this doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, I recommend that you spend all the money you save by not diving by shopping at department stores.

 

[cdiver2]

WHY?



I know a guy who had the AUDACITY to take a dead person's kidney. How is that less personal than a piece of flatware off the ship someone just so happened to dive on.

I do all my shopping at estate sales. Many times, they're in the home of an old person who lived alone, with no relatives, and was dead three days before the mail piling up prompted the police to break down the door. The liquidator goes in, often under court order, sets up shop, and sells everything in the house, taking a 20% cut. I guess all these objectors think that's positively scandalous. Me, I buy things from dead people. Sometimes, when I dive, I see dead people. I'm well adjusted enough, and free enough of superstition that this doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, I recommend that you spend all the money you save by not diving by shopping at department stores.

LITTLE MINDS

 

[lamont]

Most reasonable people draw the line at disturbing the actual remains. You can't rifle the pockets of corpse in any state of decomposition without disturbing and probably damaging it.

Personally, I don't find it appetizing to consider eating crabs or other carrion feeders taken off a wreck containing human remains. I prefer a few more degrees of separation from cannibalism.

Sounds good to me.

What about removing parts of the ship? Does it matter if its the U-853, the USS Arizona, the Doria or the Oriskany? (ignoring any legal issues).

 

[dweeb]

This is a good example of one relatively extreme view that a few people may hold but that most people would disagree with.

Extreme view, huh?
Let's see, roughly one fourth of humanity ostensibly claims some sort of allegiance to the Bible - "I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside" 2 Peter 1:13,14

More examples can be had. Give me a couple days with the Koran, and I'll find some there, too.

Almost the entire world holds to the duality of and, upon death, the separation of, body and spirit.

There are cultures where people eat the dead. Organ transplantation is commonplace in the industrialized world.
"Faces of Death" grossed millions at the box office. Millions tuned in weekly to watch Sara Michelle Gellar engage in wholesale violence in graveyards and tombs. The one thing Michael Jackson did NOT receive widespread criticism for was purchasing the remains of the Elephant Man.

There is nothing wrong with being different or with holding a minority view, but you always need to remember that you are in the minority and that your rights will end where the majority determines they will end.

Wait, I recognize that quote - the Dred Scott decision, right?

This is also one of those situations where expressing that view, in the context of wreck diving, just reaffirms the views of the "should not dive wrecks at all" crowd and incites them to action.

Yes, by all means, let's accommodate their superstitions.