Diving death at Eilat

[rockjock3]

Well, aside from the fact that rebreather divers ARE rec divers, if you have meaningful facts, quote them. If not, please do not spout opinions that have no basis in fact or education, especially where someone has died, or been injured.

We will leave the meaningful opinions to people with the requisite training, such as "Debersole" above, who is BOTH a cardiologist, AND a rebreather diver.

I never made note that the Rebreather was the cause, and it is fact that all, but one, of the accidents I have read about since joining this board have involved rebreathers (that is accidents that didn't involve an obvious source such as shark, lost at sea, etc). My additional note was only that this self-observed trend is worrisome (not singling out the gear or the people).

I also made note that the original poster stated that there are not reports yet, BUT it wasn't caused by/due to the rebreather. I stated that we should wait to make those it was/it wasn't assumptions until after the reports are out.

 

[caveseeker7]

I never made note that the Rebreather was the cause, and it is fact that all, but one, of the accidents I have read about since joining this board have involved rebreathers (that is accidents that didn't involve an obvious source such as shark, lost at sea, etc).

On a lost at sea incident nothing is known except that the diver and his gear a missing.
What makes you consider that an obvious source of an accident?
Seems to me more like the obvious result of one.

You may want to browse the A&I archives, you'll find a whole lot more incidents and accidents involving open circuit than closed circuit equipment. Talked to a bunch of coasties quite recently who were not aware of any RB fatality in SoCal. Search for location like the Yukon or Farnsworth and you'll find several fatalities along our cosatline.

 

[BigJetDriver]

I never made note that the Rebreather was the cause, and it is fact that all, but one, of the accidents I have read about since joining this board have involved rebreathers (that is accidents that didn't involve an obvious source such as shark, lost at sea, etc). My additional note was only that this self-observed trend is worrisome (not singling out the gear or the people).

I also made note that the original poster stated that there are not reports yet, BUT it wasn't caused by/due to the rebreather. I stated that we should wait to make those it was/it wasn't assumptions until after the reports are out.

First, by saying in your third paragraph of your first post: "The other item is that the original poster said the rebreather didn't play a part, but they have no details yet. Sounds to me like anything is game right now...." you directly contradict what I said in the first post.

I said, and I quote: "We have had notification of a diving death at Eilat. The deceased was an experienced diver and doctor, approximately 60 years old. The cause of death is said, at this point, to be a heart attack." That was, in fact, the report from the field.

Since I was the original poster, I would prefer that you quote my words accurately, or not at all.

Second, you also said in your first post: "I am getting a sinking feeling though when every death, but one, that I have heard of since I have been on this board has involved a rebreather. I for one would still venture to say that percentage-wise there are more deaths involving rebreathers than there are of rec divers." You then repeat this mistaken bit of information as "fact" above. If this is not a blatant laying of blame, I would like to know what is, then.

I realize that you have not been on this Board very long, but if you are going to state things like that as fact, you need to have your facts straight. This has been a bad year for scuba deaths, and there actually have been more reported OC deaths than rebreather deaths on this Board.

I am mindful of the fact that you seem to have bought into the "Rebreathers are Death Machines" myth, but would you mind not stepping directly into the rebreather forum to spout such un-substantiated folderol, please? Those of us who have actual experience on the machines would appreciate it!

Cheers!

 

[rockjock3]

First, by saying in your third paragraph of your first post: "The other item is that the original poster said the rebreather didn't play a part, but they have no details yet. Sounds to me like anything is game right now...." you directly contradict what I said in the first post.

I said, and I quote: "We have had notification of a diving death at Eilat. The deceased was an experienced diver and doctor, approximately 60 years old. The cause of death is said, at this point, to be a heart attack." That was, in fact, the report from the field.

Since I was the original poster, I would prefer that you quote my words accurately, or not at all.

Second, you also said in your first post: "I am getting a sinking feeling though when every death, but one, that I have heard of since I have been on this board has involved a rebreather. I for one would still venture to say that percentage-wise there are more deaths involving rebreathers than there are of rec divers." You then repeat this mistaken bit of information as "fact" above. If this is not a blatant laying of blame, I would like to know what is, then.

I realize that you have not been on this Board very long, but if you are going to state things like that as fact, you need to have your facts straight. This has been a bad year for scuba deaths, and there actually have been more reported OC deaths than rebreather deaths on this Board.

I am mindful of the fact that you seem to have bought into the "Rebreathers are Death Machines" myth, but would you mind not stepping directly into the rebreather forum to spout such un-substantiated folderol, please? Those of us who have actual experience on the machines would appreciate it!

Cheers!

I am sorry I misquoted you on that as that was not the intent. I must have misread the post heading as I didn't realize you were the original poster and would have addressed my responses appropriatly versus "he/she" format. I also apologize for that.

I however didn't blame the rebreather only said that it should not be ruled out until the final full report is out. If a person dies while diving OC the death still involved OC even though the cause might not have been the OC device and the same goes for death where the diver was wearing CC. I was only stating that it seemed the deaths involved rebreathers, not that they were caused by them.

I have not "bought into" the rebreather is death myth as I have never dove with one and would like to try it one day. I was merely stating a point of what "I", (to be read as I, me, myself)(not to be read as "FACT", the lords word, or law) have seen in accidents/incidents since I have joined the board.

If you have hard numbers on either side of the fence then it would be just as good/if not better to produce those as I have looked and cannot find them. I can only go off what I see in boards such as these. I would like to know actual numbers as I am sure many would so that none of us would have to rely on less than the facts.

 

[rockjock3]

For anybody that wants to know where they stand so far here is the only article that I can find so far.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/687046.html

 

[wedivebc]

OK
I know nothing abour RB but I've heard that in their missfunction they can cause a heart attack. At least in Poland we had such accident. Diver died of a heart attack but it was caused by rebreather not by natural heart failure.
Could you comment on this?
Mania

I know of no possible reason a rebreather failure could cause a heart attack which is a lack of or interruption of blood flow to heart tissue resulting in damage.
Although one could argue that any death is ultimately the result of heart failure.:06:

 

[caveseeker7]

I know nothing abour RB but I've heard that in their missfunction they can cause a heart attack. At least in Poland we had such accident. Diver died of a heart attack but it was caused by rebreather not by natural heart failure.

Care to explain just how that could possibly come about?

 

[mania]

It was something about CO2 - as I said I know nothing about and this is why I aksed this question
Mania

 

[BigJetDriver]

Rockjock, Mania, et al,

Sorry if I seemed to be coming down on everybody like a ton of bricks, but there seems to a vast store of mis-information and myth in the general diving community about re-breathers. Some of that comes from the fact that there are few of them around, compared to OC equipment. Some of that comes from self-appointed experts like George Irvine, who foam at the mouth on the internet, calling those who have died in accidents a lot of vile names. (Such behaviour for a "so-called expert" is beyond the pale for civilized individuals.) A lot tends to come from the media. (After all of these years, and shows from Sea Hunt to Discovery Channel, reporters cannot figure out that OC divers do not dive with "oxygen tanks". I don't know about you, but it does not give me much confidence in the quality of their information.)

Let me see if I can dispell a few myths for everyone's information and reading pleasure.

(1) Rebreathers are more dangerous than OC gear, in this sense alone. They require more training, and a more mature outlook on what you are doing than many people are willing to acquire.

I liken re-breathers to flying, for a very good reason. The process is the same. You pre-flight the machine. You watch your gauges while you fly. You have a back-up plan that you have practiced for emergencies. When you finish, you post-flight your machine.

What are your rewards for this extra effort? You get higher performance! Simply put, you can get much, much more bottom time, and isn't that what we are all here for?

(2) There are ways that a re-breather can kill you. In most cases they are very gentle ways. You just go to sleep. The way around this is to monitor your gauges and warning systems. (Remember, this IS more like flying.)

(3) Do re-breathers cause heart attacks? Only in the sense that if you go to sleep, as mentioned above, your mouth-piece comes out of your mouth, you drown, and your heart stops. Is there something specific about them that causes heart attacks? Simply put, NO! There is a condition called hypercapnea, which is having too much carbon dioxide in the system. If this happens, your heart will race, among other things, and if your heart is weak, it might trigger a heart attack. You could do this just as easily, however, by swimming too fast on OC.

If you find yourself becoming hypercapnic, you just reach up and twist the bail-out valve (BOV) and start breathing on OC while you figure out what is happening. Then, if it is fixable, you go on about your business. If not, you go back to the boat. No big deal.

If you are interested in finding out what re-breathers are really all about, look in Advanced Diver Magazine (Great mag!) and look for one of their "Intro to Re-breathers" sessions coming to a pool near you!

In the interests of full disclosure, I teach the Inspiration Rebreather for IANTD. I am also involved in bringing a military re-breather to the civilian market. I have also been featured in Dive Training Magazine during one of my instructional sessions in the Cayman Islands. (Not trying to blow my own horn here. Just establishing my bona fides, as they say.)

Cheers!

Rob

 

[BigJetDriver]

Folks,

It has been pointed out that I used an improper term for George Irvine in one of my previous posts. For that, I apologize, and I have modified said post.

My antipathy to the man comes from his internet behaviour, not from his personal behaviour. I have met him, and heard him speak on diving subjects. He is quite pleasant in person, and very knowledgeable.

It is his treatment of other people, and in particular the way he treats the memory, and reputation of people who have had diving accidents, that brings his own reputation into the gutter. That is sad to see. I will leave it at that.

As for your contention, Rec Diver, that his education and training greatly exceeds mine, you are correct in some areas, and in others not.

Cheers all, and again, my apologies.

P.S.--Just as a further note, even though I am an ECCR diver and instructor, I want to make it perfectly clear that I do support the efforts of the GUE/DIR school of thought. Any philosophy and training that improves the safety, procedures, and over-all health of divers is, per se, a GOOD thing.