Question (Diving adjacent) Does mechanical ventilation need invasive procedures?

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Probably easier to do extracorporeal oxygenation of blood and pump it back in.

That said, Some variation of positive pressure ventilation and mechanical compression of the chest in an assistive mode could probably work. There is a CPR device (Not the LUCAS, the other one I can't remember the name of) that does an admirable job of squeezing the chest, and much faster than a normal human respratory rate. Using pressurized gas to inflate the lungs and a mechanical device to ventilate them is probably feasible.

Also, it's an endo-tracheal tube, or just an ET tube.
 
You still need to remove CO2 from your body
That’s exactly the reason I was considering this fever dream 😅, I made an edit on a screen grab from
this lecture by @Dr Simon Mitchell to include a „ventilator“, this is what I imagined before posting my question
CE326998-0964-487A-9BCC-920D20783314.jpeg

What I am assuming is, if some -ve pressure/suction is applied during the exhalation phase, the airway compression (that makes co2 offloading harder) can be mitigated in a way
Would that work (regardless of ET tube or not)?

Edit: ok now that I visualized it with the diagram I just realized I answered my own question, P_pi is still a bigger issue here, so w/o tracheal support compression would still happen


After that some engineering to make the pump/ventilator compliant to breathing (in/out), +ve pressure can be applied on the inhale phase and well.. lower WoB both ways
 
Regarding that diagram, I think Dr. Mitchell also noted that potentially the positive static lung load of a chest-mounted counterlungs could prevent dynamic airway collapse.

If you were determined to 'ventilate' an unconscious diver underwater whose airway was uncompromised/open/protected by an operating regulator or CCR loop (held in by buddy / gag strap), you could try to simply move them between alternating positions that induce positive and negative lung pressures, so that gas could passively enter and leave the lungs?
 
you could try to simply move them between alternating positions that induce positive and negative lung pressures, so that gas could passively enter and leave the lungs
Simple and elegant, at least compared to a ventilator

No determination here tho — just daydreaming 😅
 
Yes let put divers on ecmo to dive. ;)

But more seriously, there is already a lot research done about possible consequences of the WOB of a regulator.
1 of the things they think can contribute (together with cold water) to IPE is the wob. A ccr breaths heavier than a normal regulator, even the ones that have met CE. Maybe you don't feel, but if you start to measure for sure. And they calculated/measured a difference between backmounted lungs and frontmounted lungs. All is physics. So theoretically a lung near your own lungs sounds best, like with a sidemount ccr. I own a sidekick, and I can tell you that this machine breaths ok when horizontal, but is a very crap breather when you are not horizontal. Forget breathing out when you are standing right up and forget breathing in when you are heads down completely. And also when I am swimming horizontal it breaths harder than my Inspiration with backmounted lungs.
The ADV of a ccr is most times a crap second stage if you would need to breathe from that every breath. They are only needed when you don't use the MAV, but they have really a high 'WOB' to get gas out (you cannot blow gas in like with a normal reg).

Some divers adjust their normal oc regulators as they believe that a higher wob will lower their gas consumption. This is not true.
Balanced regs breathe better than none balanced regs.

We can put helium in our breathing gas and then the WOB decreases. BUT, there is a limit on that. For example, if you go to 130m on a 6/72 diluent. The END is around 30m, so no problem. But the EADD, the equivalent air density depth is then 48m. So much higher than the END.

The oxygen part during diving is not an issue, you always dive on a higher PO2 than at surface normally, whatever you are breathing. You (normally) don't breath hypoxic gases at surface.
A ccr gives you at 10m depth most times already around 35% oxygen, and even air has then a PO2 of 0.42.
So preoxginating before a dive does not make sense, it will directly happen as soon as you take your head under the surface.

But the topic was about mechanical ventilation. If you want to fill a balloon under water, this is very hard due to physics. I am afraid that this will be the same if a person is not breathing anymore.
CPR tries to move the left oxygen in the body trough the body, so if you are a diver, theoretically you have some advantages. But performing cpr under water is also hard. And if you have to do mandatory decompression, your chances to survive lower fast. Even if you could manage to make the diver 'breath' with help from outside, how will you get the lips closed so that no water will enter? Even with a big cramp it is not completely sealed. And diving with a full face mask is not comfortable for all dives.

The best thing is not to get problems under water and not to need cpr or mechanical ventilation at all, also not at surface.

But I like the discussion about it. And remember, sometimes a stupid comment from someone can be chanced in a good idea and worked out to a working solution.
 
Can mechanical ventilation (assisted breathing) be achieved without the use of an inter tracheal tube (is that the right term)?

The imagined usecase/why I ask:
Gas density at depth/unconscious diver/high WOB… is there a chance some form of a ventilator helping them out (without turning diving into a whole procedure of shoving a tube down the throat)
Don’t know if that idea has been explored before so any leads welcome

Happy holidays everyone
In theory and under a narrow set of circumstances, maybe. From a practical standpoint, your first priority would be maintaining the airway and keeping the regulator in place. After that, the time that you would spend assessing breathing and attempting (probably with a low degree of success) to deliver breaths would be better spent getting the individual to the surface as quickly as possible.

Best regards,
DDM
 
No I’m wasn’t thinking of resuscitation (as a main thing), I’m trying to imagine assisted breathing (at depth), more or less active mechanisms to lower WoB (and also in case of a seizing diver it might have helped)
Think.. that thing from the Abyss but without drowning as a predive ritual

For surface resuscitation I wouldn’t hesitate to use my soft free diving snorkel (sits in my pocket/butt pouch) if remote & m2m/cpr aren’t helping (my dad taught me how to do it years ago), but probably on shore not on surf

But more and more I realize that the dream device from the Abyss stays scifi 🤷🏽‍♀️
Suspended animation is a thing in medicine and is bringing us very close to what is used in the abyss. But only for patients in comas, not divers yet lol
 
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