Divesoft Freedom Trimix: Cheaper and better than Perdix?

[JohnnyC]

A couple things that give me pause.

Short/Long button press interface. It sounds great, like you've got all sorts of options, but in reality, those types of interface suck when you're anywhere other than in the dive store. Gloves? Dry gloves? Dry glove leak with freezing hands? It may be a personal thing, but immediately it doesn't instill excitement. A button press should be a button press.

1-button gas switches. How is this implemented? Would really suck if your drysuit ring swaps gases on you. A 2 button press is ideal because it is still simple, and still far harder to accidentally switch gases. Not so much a problem for rec dives, but deep technical and/or cave dives, this could have serious implications when minutes added turns into hours of deco added.

Tilt/tap/shine interface is just asking for something going screwy. What happens when your buddy swipes his light over you, or you smack your hand against a tank while adjusting the leash length and your computer does something wonky that you don't notice. May be nothing, may be something.

USB connections are bad. It's one more thing to remember to have to make sure is secure.

It's made in the Czech Republic. Nothing wrong with the quality of the stuff, but if something does happen, it's a long trip back and forth, even if your LDS handles it. It's not like a drysuit that you can ship off to Steve Gamble no matter who made it, it's a sensitive piece of electronics that may or may not need to ship halfway across the world for service.

Even if it is better than the Shearwater stuff (although it seems increasingly subjective at this point) is it worth it to me to deal with the negatives? Not in my mind. There's nothing in this that's better to the point that it's worth "upgrading."

So is it "better?" Maybe. Is it "better enough?" Doesn't seem to be. In the end it's a choice though, and it's no cheaper than a Shearwater with the same capability. Passing of added complexity as a benefit, especially in the technical diving realm, doesn't always actually equate to being beneficial. It's something the purchaser has to decide for themselves.

 

[stuartv]

Compared to the Perdix, in general I'd be concerned about:

1. USB connection - I much prefer a 'dry' connection like bluetooth (especially as it's also for recharging).

2. Rechargeable batteries - I prefer user-replaceable AA batteries.

3, UI might be more complicated than the Perdix.

4. No bungee mount option (?). Website says there is, but can't see it in any pics...

5. Is there a digital compass?

6. Dis-ingenious operational depth (?).... is that the 'crush' depth or 'sensor accuracy guaranteed depth? (Shearwater list both).

You're concerned about having a dry connection, but want a battery cap for yourself to replace batteries? I'll certainly grant you that you can always take AA batteries with you anywhere you go, whereas you might be someplace that does not have any electricity or USB ports that you could use for charging. In that case, you should definitely get an OSTC 3 or Perdix. I don't see myself in that situation in the foreseeable future, so I'm okay with a rechargeable computer, as long as the built-in battery lasts at least 2 or 3 years before it needs to be replaced, and the replacement isn't stupidly expensive.

I'm sure the UI is more "complicated" than the Perdix. I think that is the nature of the decision between "less inputs" and "more inputs". 2 buttons that only register a press (no long vs short and no simultaneous) is inherently simpler. But, more inputs (whether it's physically more buttons or only 2 buttons that can also register long vs short and also simultaneous) means you add some complexity to the UI in order to gain some flexibility and the ability to do some things more quickly. iPhones only have 1 button for input. Android phones typically have 3. The iPhone is "simpler". The Android phone is more "complicated", but I personally prefer the additional flexibility and find that "more complicated" has not made it "too complicated". And its also quicker to navigate. Many's the time when my Petrel 2 "simplicity" resulted in one too many button pushes and then having to push-push-push-push to cycle all the way back through the menu to get back to what I wanted. A Back or Previous button would have been really nice.

I don't see any mention of a compass. I don't think it has one.

The bungee mount is described in the actual user's manual:

If you prefer a bungee, then remove the screws holding the bars [for the elastic strap] using a Torx screwdriver (T 20 size). Don’t use any other tool; screw heads are easily damaged.

If you want to use a silicon protective sleeve, install it before installing the bungee. It is not possible to install the sleeve on the computer with bungee already installed.

Pass the bungee through the threaded holes and secure with a knot.

There is a special thread inside the holes which does not damage the bungee.

Use a small flame to melt the braid of the bungee and make a tip on the end of it for easier pass-through.

Both the strap and bungee are included.

The page I linked says right on it that the operational depth is 300m and that the aluminum case has been tested to 600m. That doesn't seem disingenuous to me.

 

[stuartv]

A couple things that give me pause.

Short/Long button press interface. It sounds great, like you've got all sorts of options, but in reality, those types of interface suck when you're anywhere other than in the dive store. Gloves? Dry gloves? Dry glove leak with freezing hands? It may be a personal thing, but immediately it doesn't instill excitement. A button press should be a button press.

1-button gas switches. How is this implemented? Would really suck if your drysuit ring swaps gases on you. A 2 button press is ideal because it is still simple, and still far harder to accidentally switch gases. Not so much a problem for rec dives, but deep technical and/or cave dives, this could have serious implications when minutes added turns into hours of deco added.

Tilt/tap/shine interface is just asking for something going screwy. What happens when your buddy swipes his light over you, or you smack your hand against a tank while adjusting the leash length and your computer does something wonky that you don't notice. May be nothing, may be something.

USB connections are bad. It's one more thing to remember to have to make sure is secure.

It's made in the Czech Republic. Nothing wrong with the quality of the stuff, but if something does happen, it's a long trip back and forth, even if your LDS handles it. It's not like a drysuit that you can ship off to Steve Gamble no matter who made it, it's a sensitive piece of electronics that may or may not need to ship halfway across the world for service.

Even if it is better than the Shearwater stuff (although it seems increasingly subjective at this point) is it worth it to me to deal with the negatives? Not in my mind. There's nothing in this that's better to the point that it's worth "upgrading."

So is it "better?" Maybe. Is it "better enough?" Doesn't seem to be. In the end it's a choice though, and it's no cheaper than a Shearwater with the same capability. Passing of added complexity as a benefit, especially in the technical diving realm, doesn't always actually equate to being beneficial. It's something the purchaser has to decide for themselves.

I read the user manual. The 1-button gas switches and the tilt, tap, and light shine input options don't seem to me to be a problem. They seem to be intelligently implemented. But, I'm not going to re-type the manual for you. If you want to read for yourself, it's here:

http://www.divesoft.cz/data/files/manual/Divesoft_Freedom_User_Manual_2.03_EN.pdf

If you're worried about dry glove rings pressing the buttons, you can wear it with the buttons towards your elbow. Also, I started another thread here recently about accidental gas switches on a Shearwater. I know 2 people personally who told me that it happened to them and at least boulderjohn from here on SB posted in the thread that it has happened to him.

I definitely don't think there is any reason to upgrade from a Shearwater to this. It's more of a "if you're buying a computer, should you get a SW or this (or an OSTC or Ratio or H3 or something else)" question.

Really, because of accidental button presses, I am becoming more and more inclined to not buy a tech computer that has buttons on the sides at all. The OSTC 4 and the Ratio iX3M both have their buttons on the front and that design is starting to make a LOT of sense to me. The Seabear H3 has its buttons at 45 degree angles on the front corners and that also seems to be good. I haven't had any accidental button presses with mine, anyway.

You said the Freedom is no cheaper than a Shearwater. Please tell me where I can get a new Shearwater for less than $700! The Freedom Full Trimix is USD$693 (plus shipping, I assume).

 

[DevonDiver]

The page I linked says right on it that the operational depth is 300m and that the aluminum case has been tested to 600m. That doesn't seem disingenuous to me.

With other computers... such as Shearwater's.... they specify the depth to which their depth sensor is guaranteed accurate. That depth is substantially shallower than the 'crush depth' of the housing. I think that's an important factor in 'operational depth'.... for many divers.

Whilst you might opt to dive below that sensor accuracy depth.... is it fair for a manufacturer to state a significantly deeper depth, below guaranteed sensor accuracy, as the 'operational depth' of the computer?

Crush depth is different to operational depth.... IMHO..... because I need to know the risks I'm taking on a given dive.... from a deco perspective.... not a 'will my computer implode?' concern...

That said... I doubt many divers would be going beyond 'sensor accuracy depth' without a much greater understanding of the performance ranges of their dive computer

 

[stuartv]

With other computers... such as Shearwater's.... they specify the depth to which their depth sensor is guaranteed accurate. That depth is substantially shallower than the 'crush depth' of the housing. I think that's an important factor in 'operational depth'.... for many divers.

Whilst you might opt to dive below that sensor accuracy depth.... is it fair for a manufacturer to state a significantly deeper depth, below guaranteed sensor accuracy, as the 'operational depth' of the computer?

Crush depth is different to operational depth.... IMHO..... because I need to know the risks I'm taking on a given dive.... from a deco perspective.... not a 'will my computer implode?' concern...

That said... I doubt many divers would be going beyond 'sensor accuracy depth' without a much greater understanding of the performance ranges of their dive computer

I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand what you are trying to imply.

They said 300m operational depth and the housing is tested to 600m. I interpret that as 300m sensor accuracy and 600m crush depth.

Do you feel that them using the term "operational depth" instead of "sensor accuracy depth" is a dodge on their part to allow them to report a deeper depth than what the sensor is guaranteed to be accurate for? Or, I should say, MAY be a dodge on their part?

I would definitely think very poorly of them if they reported an operational depth of 300m and then found out their sensor is only accurate to, say, 250m. But, I would think they would be taking a serious risk in liability and market credibility if they did that?

I do note in the user's manual that they provide a way for you to calibrate the pressure sensor (but say that you should not normally need to do that). And they document how to enter a service menu which has (among others) a screen that shows you the status of all the sensors. Not sure how useful any of that is, but it's more than what the Shearwaters offer.

 

[JohnnyC]

I've read the manual. I don't share your optimism with regard to the input mechanisms, and know from using various pieces of technology that use combinations of long and short presses, and tap interfaces, that they never work as well as the manufacturer would lead you to believe.

Also, where are you finding the full trimix for $693? This image grab is straight off the divesoft.cz website. $838.40 is substantially more than the price you quote, plus shipping, plus duty into the US. I even tried ordering it in EUR trying to get it to recalculate ex-VAT and it would not go through. I don't think this is as simple as taking out VAT and doing the conversion. I have sent them an e-mail asking if they would honor the EUR price without VAT. We'll see what they say. At $700 it would be more attractive to a new technical diver.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

As far as gas switches, the plural of anecdote isn't evidence, so the 3 people who have had Shearwaters switch isn't indicative of an issue (I've never had the issue, doesn't make it a valid counterpoint) but the fact is that the easier it is to switch gases, the more false switches you will have. I don't think counting on turning the computer around is a positive defense against improper gas switches. The Shearwaters take 2 presses, that's two discreet actions, and it still happens occasionally, this takes one.

That all being said, give them a ring, get one and try it. Let us know how it is.

 

[stuartv]

I've read the manual. I don't share your optimism with regard to the input mechanisms, and know from using various pieces of technology that use combinations of long and short presses, and tap interfaces, that they never work as well as the manufacturer would lead you to believe.

Also, where are you finding the full trimix for $693? This image grab is straight off the divesoft.cz website. $838.40 is substantially more than the price you quote, plus shipping, plus duty into the US. I even tried ordering it in EUR trying to get it to recalculate ex-VAT and it would not go through. I don't think this is as simple as taking out VAT and doing the conversion. I have sent them an e-mail asking if they would honor the EUR price without VAT. We'll see what they say. At $700 it would be more attractive to a new technical diver.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

As far as gas switches, the plural of anecdote isn't evidence, so the 3 people who have had Shearwaters switch isn't indicative of an issue (I've never had the issue, doesn't make it a valid counterpoint) but the fact is that the easier it is to switch gases, the more false switches you will have. I don't think counting on turning the computer around is a positive defense against improper gas switches. The Shearwaters take 2 presses, that's two discreet actions, and it still happens occasionally, this takes one.

That all being said, give them a ring, get one and try it. Let us know how it is.

The USD$693 price is what it displays on their website for the non-VAT price, when I click the little U.S. flag icon at the top of the page. I could totally be wrong, but I am under the impression that when you order stuff from an EU country and it is shipped to the U.S., you would not be charged VAT. However, I did not try to add it to a cart and purchase it.

I am interested in what people think about how it stacks up to the competition and if anyone can report on actual usage. But, at the moment I am only likely to buy a Hollis TX1, if I can find a used one for relatively cheap. It would just be a backup to my H3. The TX1 will work with the AI transmitter I already have. Otherwise, I'm waiting for DEMA, to see what new trimix-capable options come out that support AI. If nothing new comes out that I like, then I'll probably keep looking for a used TX1 or buy a new one. After doing a few tech dives with my Atom and AI added to my rig, I have found that I like getting the detailed consumption data. I feel like it's helping me do better planning. It has actually caused me to plan MORE conservatively (because my consumption on tech dives has been higher than on rec dives). I'm heading towards trimix training sometime in the next little while, so I would like to get a second trimix-capable computer. Diving with wetnotes and a written out plan is a good backup to a tech computer, but a second tech computer is an even better backup, I think. A written plan in wet notes is fine for a third line of defense, but if my main computer croaks on a tech dive, I'd rather have another tech computer to go by, if I can.

And I do hear what you're saying on the button presses and accidental gas switches, etc.. I'm not disagreeing, either. I was trying to be a bit of a Devil's Advocate on that. I do still think that, as good a design as the Shearwaters are, front-mounted buttons are even better.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Dive Right in Scuba has the Freedom in stock, no need to order from Europe. Here's a picture for others who are curious.

 

[DevonDiver]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand what you are trying to imply.

They said 300m operational depth and the housing is tested to 600m. I interpret that as 300m sensor accuracy and 600m crush depth.

Do you feel that them using the term "operational depth" instead of "sensor accuracy depth" is a dodge on their part to allow them to report a deeper depth than what the sensor is guaranteed to be accurate for? Or, I should say, MAY be a dodge on their part?

I would definitely think very poorly of them if they reported an operational depth of 300m and then found out their sensor is only accurate to, say, 250m. But, I would think they would be taking a serious risk in liability and market credibility if they did that?

I do note in the user's manual that they provide a way for you to calibrate the pressure sensor (but say that you should not normally need to do that). And they document how to enter a service menu which has (among others) a screen that shows you the status of all the sensors. Not sure how useful any of that is, but it's more than what the Shearwaters offer.

I'm not trying to imply anything. I read the specs and it begged the question....

Where other tech manufacturers have stated 'sensor accuracy depths', they all seem to be around the same depth... circa 130-140m.

That leads me to wonder if the Freedom uses a drastically superior sensor.... and why other manufacturers in a competitive market haven't used the same?

.... or whether there is indeed some fudge in the marketing...?

 

[Long-John-Silver]

Here in Italy they are pretty common now.
Two friends of mine bought the bottom timer version one year ago. They have a quite aggressive dive schedule on the weekend: usually two dives of four hours for a total run-time of about eight hours.
When the instrument was new it was capable of the above schedule on one full recharge; after few months they experienced shorter operating time so they start to turn off the display during the deco (it's a feature to save battery) and it was compulsory to recharge it at each dive during the night.
After six months they sold it for a Perdix: replaceable battery and longer operating time. If you have a low battery you could just change it before jumping in the water and anyway battery duration is longer.
Maybe the above scenario it's to aggressive but you get an idea. After all it's an instrument designed for technical divers. I hate to have another task: remember to charge my instrument each night.