Diver dies in San Diego

[dave4868]

And yet nothing in that Sticky you shared mentions taking an accident scenario and extrapolating out suppositions about what MIGHT have occured during the accident (especially when there are eyewitnesses forthcoming)... which I still maintain is not part of a healthy accident discussion nor condusive toward illuminating the FACTS of a particular incident.

Too, it seems upon further review that the real name of this forum is "Accidents and Incidents". If it truly is "what if--then what might have happened and what might you do" forum I'd be willing to be pointed to that name on the leader page.

Like I alluded to earlier, if any of the object lessons the poster mentions turns out to be true in this incident, then they would be wonderful additions to the discussion. Othewise they'd simply be precursors to a crapload of misinformation promulgated here... and then throughout the dive community.

My opinion, of course. ;-)

Cheers,

Bill

Bill, I share your concern when conclusions are drawn prematurely or unfairly to the detriment of the reputation of the victim(s), but I think the posts in this thread have pretty much avoided drawing conclusions beyond what was reported and/or known.

I think the posts have mostly examined and discussed the possible scenarios and potential lessons, thereby following the guidelines of the forum. That often involves extrapolating "what if" suppositions about what "might" have occurred based on the limited information we usually get.

The sticky, as quoted:

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.

Perhaps the posts should have repeatedly stated that they were making suppositions or generalizations and not drawing conclusions, but I think it's been clear enough in this thread.

Now, some other threads in the past have really been castigating of the victims, but this thread has been very fair, logical, informative and thought-provoking, IMHO.

Dave C

 

[Bubbletrubble]

All of these are fantastic and needful things to talk about, but not (I maintain) within the context of this diver death thread. Know why? Because five divers out of 100 would read a post like yours, then go to another bulletin board and post thusly:

Diver who died this last weekend was OVERWEIGHTED! (NOT TRUE, for anyone just skimming this post!)

Then it's repeated as fact countless times until dozens of people are repeating falsehoods (as far as we know).

I've seen it happen during this very incident more than once already.

Bill, I understand your concerns. I'm glad that you voiced them here in this forum. I agree that disseminating inaccurate information is damaging to those involved in the accident, the investigating authorities, and the diving community at large. I'd hate to think that I ever had a part in any of that.

At the same time, I think that the ScubaBoard readership is capable of differentiating between "just the facts" and when we extend the discussion to consider the "what-ifs," provided that we make it clear when we are doing so. I'll agree with you that there is a risk in discussing these "what if" scenarios, but I maintain that the potential benefit to the diving community is worth it.

So, now I'm going to pose a question to the people reading this thread that's relevant to this dive accident. (And, Bill, I hope that with your experience as an instructor, you'll feel comfortable giving your opinion on the matter.)

The media has reported that the buddy pair was sharing air during ascent when, for some undetermined reason, the two were separated.

• We can all probably agree that under most circumstances it's advisable to be near-neutrally buoyant while ascending. Doing so allows a diver to maintain proper control of his ascent rate.
• During an air share, we know that it can be very helpful for each diver in the buddy pair to establish contact/maintain a secure grip on the other so that the pair isn't separated.

Bad things could happen if an air-sharing buddy pair were separated during ascent...matters would be even worse if the OOA diver were negatively buoyant and the other were positively buoyant, and they just happened to be near-neutral while connected.
Are there any tips anyone has out there to be able to do both of these things at the same time, i.e., check for neutral buoyancy while being securely linked to your air-sharing buddy during ascent?
In practice air shares, I've grabbed a hold of my buddy's shoulder strap/harness, but I remember not being able to get a sense for my independent buoyancy. I imagine linking arms might work a little better since you could kind of check whether you are neutral...and your buddy could do the same.
This is a subtlety that I don't recall learning in OW or AOW class.

 

[Power Scuba]

Are there any tips anyone has out there to be able to do both of these things at the same time, i.e., check for neutral buoyancy while being securely linked to your air-sharing buddy during ascent?
In practice air shares, I've grabbed a hold of my buddy's shoulder strap/harness, but I remember not being able to get a sense for my independent buoyancy. I imagine linking arms might work a little better since you could kind of check whether you are neutral...and your buddy could do the same.
This is a subtlety that I don't recall learning in OW or AOW class.

I have my students do it thusly: Each diver reaches with their right arm and grabs the shoulder strap or D-Ring of their buddy's right side. This leaves each diver's left arm free to grab their own inflator hose, raise it above their head, and poise their finger close to the deflate button for such time as it becomes necessary to vent air from the BC as they ascend.

What this doesn't do is allow for either of them to monitor their rate of ascent. The "bubbles" thing works decently, but is not Standards. For an ascent of any significant distance I tell them they must move their left hand off the inflator hose for just a moment in order to check their gauge for proper ascent speed/rate... then move the hand right back to the hose and vent a bit of air (or more) the second one feels "floaty". Like anything else, it's a skill that must be practiced both in the class and afterwards.

I'm afraid that doesn't give you much of the tips or tricks that you were asking for, but I find it works well for me.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Power Scuba]

In practice air shares, I've grabbed a hold of my buddy's shoulder strap/harness, but I remember not being able to get a sense for my independent buoyancy.

By the way, one must stay sensitive to it, but when either party gets "floaty" or negative, it's usually easy to tell. One goes higher and the other tends lower.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I have my students do it thusly: Each diver reaches with their right arm and grabs the shoulder strap or D-Ring of their buddy's right side. This leaves each diver's left arm free to grab their own inflator hose, raise it above their head, and poise their finger close to the deflate button for such time as it becomes necessary to vent air from the BC as they ascend.

Yup. This is how I learned...and how I still do it. Just curious...have you ever had a student accidentally engage the quick-release shoulder-strap button that's on many of the BCDs? It's usually located in about the same area that's convenient to grab during an air share.

What this doesn't do is allow for either of them to monitor their rate of ascent. The "bubbles" thing works decently, but is not Standards. For an ascent of any significant distance I tell them they must move their left hand off the inflator hose for just a moment in order to check their gauge for proper ascent speed/rate... then move the hand right back to the hose and vent a bit of air (or more) the second one feels "floaty". Like anything else, it's a skill that must be practiced both in the class and afterwards.

If one has a wrist computer, maybe this is another reason to wear it on the right wrist so that the face is positioned on the ventral aspect of the arm. Then perhaps (although it's close quarters) you might be able to steal a look at the computer while looking at your buddy...and vent with your left hand all at the same time.

 

[Rick Murchison]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

I have split the "Are certs and currency requirements too lenient" discussion off into a new tread...
Rick

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[Power Scuba]

Just curious...have you ever had a student accidentally engage the quick-release shoulder-strap button that's on many of the BCDs? It's usually located in about the same area that's convenient to grab during an air share.

No, can't say I've ever seen this, though it DOES reside in that area. usually it takes a very deliberate motion and push to engage that release button.

If one has a wrist computer, maybe this is another reason to wear it on the right wrist so that the face is positioned on the ventral aspect of the arm. Then perhaps (although it's close quarters) you might be able to steal a look at the computer while looking at your buddy...and vent with your left hand all at the same time.

I do have a wrist computer on my left arm and it's an easy motion to twist my arm whilst holding the inflator hose above my head, turn my head, and glance at the display.

Another option for many divers would be to hold their hose gauges in the right hand and simultaneously hold their buddy's D-Ring with the same hand... assuming their hose is long enough to permit this. It's a slight bit less than simple, but entirely doable.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[river_sand_bar]

No, can't say I've ever seen this, though it DOES reside in that area. usually it takes a very deliberate motion and push to engage that release button.



I do have a wrist computer on my left arm and it's an easy motion to twist my arm whilst holding the inflator hose above my head, turn my head, and glance at the display.

Another option for many divers would be to hold their hose gauges in the right hand and simultaneously hold their buddy's D-Ring with the same hand... assuming their hose is long enough to permit this. It's a slight bit less than simple, but entirely doable.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill, this actually brings up a issue that I have when doing an ascent while doing a share air with my buddy.

I have an airsource 3 on my b/c .... in a ascent-share air case having an airsource rather than an octo, makes for a very difficult share air, hold onto buddy AND keep inflator hose overhead. In this situation I have to use the right shoulder dump valve in order to release air and control my bouynce.

So for me, its right hand - hold onto buddies shoulder strap... left hand holding gauges to control ascent and left hand reaching for right shoulder dump valve.... can get complicated!!!!

 

[Power Scuba]

...I have an airsource 3 on my b/c .... in a ascent-share air case having an airsource rather than an octo, makes for a very difficult share air,.... can get complicated!!!!

I'm sure it's as you say... which is a very good cautionary note to emphasize that it's impertative to practice skills anytime you get a new piece of gear. And make sure your buddy practices those skills WITH you. An emergency is that last place you want your buddy to get familiar with your airsource 3.

Bringing this sub-discussion back around: I'll be interested to see what gear they (the father & son team) were diving with... not that it's THAT germaine. After a year+ since their o/w class, with no dives in-between, it's a fair bet they weren't all that familiar with ANY type of equipment.

Too, I'll be interested to see if the son discloses how exactly he was "separated" from his father upon the son's running out of air event. I'm afraid I already know, there's a basic human nature/survival instinct involved, but will withhold opinion.

I'm curious, if the authorities don't release info, as to whether or not it could be made a Freedom of Information issue.

 

[Noboundaries]

The AirSource/AirXS2/etc isn't designed to share with your buddy. The inflator integrated secondary is designed for you to use while you give your buddy your primary. People will argue all day long about the problems with such a design, but it's out there.