Diver Death in Cayman

[ZenDiver.3D]

Not only have I been there, I used that dive op and that boat a couple of months earlier, with almost exactly the same assortment of divers, for what would have been exactly those two dives.

I understand that they all do a wall and a reef, but the reason baffles me. I specifically told them I had a very new diver with me and didn't want the 100' wall dive, but was told the same thing you just said " we do it all the time".

When I told the DM we would not be getting out of the boat if he took us to the wall, he finally agreed to let us do the reef twice. The other brand-new diver (not mine) was very relieved when he heard this.

So yes, I've been there.

Terry

Your outcome was different from this tragic event, because you took personal responsibility. I do not like sounding harsh and insensitive, but I am very honest about this. My following speech is one of the only facts that you Can count on. And I teach this to ALL my students.

At the end of the day, YOU are the only one responsible for you. You know your level of training, you know your skills, and you are the only one responsible for your dive and your safety.
You don't tell the dive leader (whether DM or instructor what your cert is and think They plan your dive). That is not their job. It is Your job to plan you dive and dive your plan. No one is responsible for you, but you. Do not EVER let anyone push you to dive beyond your limits. EVER. And if you do, then it's on you, if something goes wrong. Always take care of you. That is your right and responsibility. Do NOT exceed your limits. There is no dive police and you are in control. So be smart, because there are no old reckless divers.

Now, it sounds like many people knew that this particular dive was a bad plan but they continued with it. That is squarely their responsibility. But the DM should have been clear as to who was with who as buddy pairs. I wonder if he knew or agreed to buddy with the fellow. I have no idea. I never will. I do feel bad that this happened and am sorry for the people involved, though I think they are laying total blame where it does not belong. There are a lot of contributing factors here, so to lay it solely on the DM is not fair, in my opinion. He bears responsibility if he agreed to be buddy to the victim and did not stay with his buddy, carry out lost buddy procedures, or lost diver search procedures.

Last thing. 9 deaths in an area where you get vacation divers, (who are the most careless and reckless in my experience due to lack of training and dives. 300 dives in 20 years = vacation diver only and not adequate to ensure good diving practices or good decision making), is not a number that is out of hand. I think it is sad, but you must think of the customer base. They are, quite often, accidents waiting to happen.

I am sorry for any death, and I hope that others at least learn from this tragedy.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Sorry Thal, too late.

+1 here.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

In advance, I apologise for my first post being on such a sensitive subject. I am not a troll, nor am I seeking political advantage. What I have seen here is nothing less than a pathetic attempt at blame-hauling from people that are NOT DIRECTLY involved in the incident.

My condolences go to the family of the bereaved, but PLEASE, this is turning into a Kangaroo Court of who/when/why/where etc.....

And the O.P. is doing nothing to make sure there is a balanced outcome...


I have one request: Fosterboxer thingy...... Come forward and declare who you really are, because I sure as hell will make sure I am not on the same boat as you..... (And just because I don't declare my qualifications, doesn't mean I am not competent....)

This whole thread has turned into a pathetic witch hunt. I am available by PM just before people claim this is an attempt to provoke trouble.........

No need to PM you. I am not afraid to publicly state that coming here and in your first few posts defending what are to any reasonable diver and responsible diving instructors
decidedly unsafe practices sounds awful fishy. No need to PM why don't you tell US exactly who you are. Wanna know who I am? Go to my website-the link is in my sig line. As to your disrespect to the OP you have no room to question who she is. Had you read the whole thread you would know. So either man up and tell us what you would appear to know about this or go away and continue promoting dive practices that are unsafe, against the standards of most agencies, and will continue to get people killed.

I have never been to Cayman. I hope to make it there in the future as my wife would like to see it. But you can bet your ass that no Dm is going to make me do a dive I don't want to do and if there are newbies on the boat who appear uncomfortable or clueless as to the risks I will loudly and in no uncertain terms tell them that trust me dives are dangerous and that the person suggesting they do them is not only an idiot, but reckless and dangerous. So go ahead, attack people on this board whose only interest is in seeing that these unsafe practices come to an end. Either by action on the part of agencies, ops, and instructors or by divers who now are better educated and will refuse to take part in these CF's.

 

[pilot fish]

The obvious point you are mising in Web Monkey's post is that he is a very experienced diver and knows what to expect from a person leading a dive, DM or DG, whatever the vougue is now. The brand new diver, the deceased, knew zero and thought the person leading the dive was an actual Dive Master, who he thought was a dive god.

Your outcome was different from this tragic event, because you took personal responsibility. I do not like sounding harsh and insensitive, but I am very honest about this. My following speech is one of the only facts that you Can count on. And I teach this to ALL my students.

At the end of the day, YOU are the only one responsible for you. You know your level of training, you know your skills, and you are the only one responsible for your dive and your safety.
You don't tell the dive leader (whether DM or instructor what your cert is and think They plan your dive). That is not their job. It is Your job to plan you dive and dive your plan. No one is responsible for you, but you. Do not EVER let anyone push you to dive beyond your limits. EVER. And if you do, then it's on you, if something goes wrong. Always take care of you. That is your right and responsibility. Do NOT exceed your limits. There is no dive police and you are in control. So be smart, because there are no old reckless divers.

Now, it sounds like many people knew that this particular dive was a bad plan but they continued with it. That is squarely their responsibility. But the DM should have been clear as to who was with who as buddy pairs. I wonder if he knew or agreed to buddy with the fellow. I have no idea. I never will. I do feel bad that this happened and am sorry for the people involved, though I think they are laying total blame where it does not belong. There are a lot of contributing factors here, so to lay it solely on the DM is not fair, in my opinion. He bears responsibility if he agreed to be buddy to the victim and did not stay with his buddy, carry out lost buddy procedures, or lost diver search procedures.

Last thing. 9 deaths in an area where you get vacation divers, (who are the most careless and reckless in my experience due to lack of training and dives. 300 dives in 20 years = vacation diver only and not adequate to ensure good diving practices or good decision making), is not a number that is out of hand. I think it is sad, but you must think of the customer base. They are, quite often, accidents waiting to happen.

I am sorry for any death, and I hope that others at least learn from this tragedy.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Fosterboxermom first off, Iam sorry to hear of your loss my condolences go out to you and his family.
I have read some of the articles concerning the deaths and the ignorance of some dive operators in the Caymans.(Thanks to you) There does seem to be enough evidence that the all mighty dollar is the main concern and not the clients safety. I think everyone who dives owes it to our sport to research and police the practices of dive operators. We all know that this is a fun yet dangerous sport not to be taken lightly. Safety precautions is what we rely on to make it safe. And personally to here some of the flipit attitudes toward recommended safety precautions widely accepted, is enough to force me to take my business elsewhere. As all divers should when they feel there safety is not the first concern. So thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Thank you for your condolences. But please understand when I first started posting I was very emotional. I did make some erroneous posts and may have stated that "ALL" dive ops were bad. I have to say that I have not been diving with ALL the dive ops in the Cayman's and that my opinion NOW is that you should ask questions of ANY dive shop you dive at whether it be in the Cayman's or any place in the world. There probably are GREAT dive shops in in the Cayman's but make sure you ask them all the questions you need to BEFORE you dive with them. I suggest you read Jim Lap's:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html

That will give you the best information you will ever need. The Cayman's are a beautiful place and I met some wonderful people as a result of this tragedy that were so kind to Pam and I. We will never forget them. I am not sure I can ever go back there and dive because of what happened, but I don't want others not to go there because of this. However, please be careful a lot of their dives are at a 100ft because the Wall is so popular. So please stress that if you aren't qualified to dive to that limit SPEAK UP!!!

I won't recommend the dive shop I went with because they did not obey the Port Authority Laws but from what I understand the other dive shops do.

I have learned a lot from this board and the veteran posters here. They have taught me things I never knew. I accept and value the advice and constructive criticism from them. Stay with the thread and you too will learn from them.

Others you can ignore.

 

[Web Monkey]

Your outcome was different from this tragic event, because you took personal responsibility. I do not like sounding harsh and insensitive, but I am very honest about this. My following speech is one of the only facts that you Can count on. And I teach this to ALL my students.

At the end of the day, YOU are the only one responsible for you. You know your level of training, you know your skills, and you are the only one responsible for your dive and your safety.
. . .

It's nice to tell them that, but I don't think I've ever seen a brand new diver with the balls to stand up to the instructor, DM or boat captain and say "No, we're not doing xxx, we're doing yyyy, or with the judgement to even know the risks of a proposed dive.

Terry

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And that goes right back to piss poor training. And not knowing what should be basic limits. Especially your own.

 

[Teamcasa]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

I split off some of the posts to here http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/288574-split-diver-death-cayman.html

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[fosterboxermom]

OK, I got everyones point and I value your opinions and and expertise. I understand a lot of you have MUCH MUCH more experience than I do. Just try to remember everyone here is not an instructor or has the experience that you do and you have to put yourself in others shoes sometimes just as I try to put myself in your shoes and look at it from your perspective. it goes both ways.

 

[alaskafire08]

Your outcome was different from this tragic event, because you took personal responsibility. I do not like sounding harsh and insensitive, but I am very honest about this. My following speech is one of the only facts that you Can count on. And I teach this to ALL my students.

At the end of the day, YOU are the only one responsible for you. You know your level of training, you know your skills, and you are the only one responsible for your dive and your safety.
You don't tell the dive leader (whether DM or instructor what your cert is and think They plan your dive). That is not their job. It is Your job to plan you dive and dive your plan. No one is responsible for you, but you. Do not EVER let anyone push you to dive beyond your limits. EVER. And if you do, then it's on you, if something goes wrong. Always take care of you. That is your right and responsibility. Do NOT exceed your limits. There is no dive police and you are in control. So be smart, because there are no old reckless divers.

Now, it sounds like many people knew that this particular dive was a bad plan but they continued with it. That is squarely their responsibility. But the DM should have been clear as to who was with who as buddy pairs. I wonder if he knew or agreed to buddy with the fellow. I have no idea. I never will. I do feel bad that this happened and am sorry for the people involved, though I think they are laying total blame where it does not belong. There are a lot of contributing factors here, so to lay it solely on the DM is not fair, in my opinion. He bears responsibility if he agreed to be buddy to the victim and did not stay with his buddy, carry out lost buddy procedures, or lost diver search procedures.

Last thing. 9 deaths in an area where you get vacation divers, (who are the most careless and reckless in my experience due to lack of training and dives. 300 dives in 20 years = vacation diver only and not adequate to ensure good diving practices or good decision making), is not a number that is out of hand. I think it is sad, but you must think of the customer base. They are, quite often, accidents waiting to happen.

I am sorry for any death, and I hope that others at least learn from this tragedy.

This gentleman said it best. Thank God he returned from Kuwait safely (and thank you for serving the USA). It's true, at the end of the day, we are all responsible for ourselves. Especially in unfamiliar territory.

I've been watching this thread from the beginning and I just have to jump in with some points of view. I'm not a diver, so it's not about diving. It's just that I know for certain Brendan would not be blaming anybody for his demise. He was a smart man, great friend, great co-worker, wonderful father & had a quick sense of humor. It's true he was on vacation with this woman, Pam; however, if she was truely his "fiance" why in the world didn't SHE step up to the plate & say something to him when he said he wanted to go beyond his comfort zone (someone posted here he just wanted to say he'd done it??? ) - By the way, they had only started dating about 6 months prior to this trip. Not that it matters much, just wanted to put the relationship into perspective.

I need to ask you all to put a rest to this endless thread & the (gag) condolences to Fosterboxermom. If my calculations are right, she knew Brendan for only a matter of hours! She started this mess, (I know you're reading, so....) you're sticking your wet nose in where it doesn't belong. Step off! Your 15 minutes of fame are over.

I am totally outraged over this endless drivel. Let Joe (Brendan) rest in peace. Let his family rest in peace, and let his true soul mate (sure as hell isn't Pam) rest in peace!! He left a HUGE hole on this side of the ocean. Stop this abuse now!! You've all learned what you can from this accident. MOVE ON, PLEASE!