Dive Instructor Training Abroad

[MauiScubaSteve]

Once again I'm not here to bash PADI, as my first cert was PADI

How does the above statement get followed by the following statement? What are the ethical standards of your training agency with regards to badmouthing the competition?

PADI has standards that are supposed to be met, and often they are not. Even once a complaint has been filed, many times nothing is done about standards violations. This is why companys have their Instructor mills in foreign lands, where standards take a back seat to profits.

And once again I have to ask, how is it you come by these facts? You sure seem to be stating them as facts. Can you give us links to show what you are stating as fact is actually fact?

My strongly held opinion is you are theorizing that Instructor Factories outside of the US are governed by substandard Regional Offices compared to domestic US Regional Offices. And that theory is supported by what incidents you have first hand knowledge of?

I find it easy to conceive of Regions where Standards are at least as strict as North American Standards, from what I've heard and read. I call that having an open mind, but YMMV.

 

[tomfcrist]

My "THEORY" is standard knowledge for divers that pay attention to what is going on out there. Its not just Instructor mills either, its substandard reigional standards in general.....they investigate and rarely ever enforce any punitive action. So why would these folks change what they are doing to an ethical practice?

Here is a link that is very interesting regarding a piss poor instructor in colombia....OBTW, he's still teaching and endangering students.http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...rience-advice-please.html?highlight=tutifruti

A little long, but a good read. This isnt the only incident like this, and the agency hasnt done crap about it.

 

[tomfcrist]

What are the ethical standards of your training agency with regards to badmouthing the competition?

Why are you so blind? Open your eyes, and see what they are doing.

Ethics regarding badmouthing other agencys?? Its not badmouthing when its factual. My training agency has bad instructors too, I assure you of that.....and if I see them break even 1 standard they will be reported. Its my Duty as a member of my orginization to ensure that we as a whole live up to our ethos. Evidently you really dont get that.

 

[Interceptor121]

Proposing zero to hero programs is a marketing decision and depends on how a certain scuba school plans to make money.
Why there are so many in places like Thailand? Because Thailand is a typical gap year destination so no wonder dive schools try to make some money out of it.
Clearly other places in the world can't even offer that because you are not going to say Florida for a gap year or California or even Europe because that will cost you a fortune just to stay.
On to the second issue are zero to hero instructors so crap?
I believe you need to have some real evidence. The main issue I see is that as you as diving operation will actually not hire a zero to hero instructor there is a very unlikely chance that those guys will actually make it to be a working instructor
Sadly there are also the other places that offer internships having some desperate guy working for free to get some experience so that they do not have to pay respected and experienced professionals to do work.
So the combo zero to hero plus internship desperado can actually produce some fairly bad instructors at least in theory
I would however think that lots of the zero to hero audience actually have no idea of what it means to work in the industry and once they understand that there is a chance that they will actually wish to do no work at all even if offered

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Here is a link that is very interesting regarding a piss poor instructor in colombia....OBTW, he's still teaching and endangering students.http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...rience-advice-please.html?highlight=tutifruti

OK, I read the entire thread, and I have read SB horror stories about an instructor trainer who bounced around in Mexico(?) for a while and was excommunicated officially. Isn't this thread about Instructor Training? Are you saying the instructor in that thread was trained at an Instructor Factory outside of the Americas Region?

I have not spent any time at Guantanamo, but here is a quote from the thread you linked;

It's the internet. You never know what to believe until confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt, which rarely happens.

One thing I would like to point out is that you seem to be talking about the PADI Americas Region, which it seems includes North, Central and South America;

My strongly held opinion is you are theorizing that Instructor Factories outside of the US are governed by substandard Regional Offices compared to domestic US Regional Offices. And that theory is supported by what incidents you have first hand knowledge of?

So far you have only supported my last previous paragraph;

I find it easy to conceive of Regions where Standards are at least as strict as North American Standards, from what I've heard and read. I call that having an open mind, but YMMV.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Ethics regarding badmouthing other agencys?? Its not badmouthing when its factual. My training agency has bad instructors too, I assure you of that.....and if I see them break even 1 standard they will be reported. Its my Duty as a member of my orginization to ensure that we as a whole live up to our ethos. Evidently you really dont get that.

Where is your evidence that I don't get the fact that without facts what you are saying is actually slander? I am trying to show you that you are not really dealing with any facts!

I'm still waiting for the facts. What is your definition of a fact? Please link some facts to back up your supposed statement of fact!

PADI has standards that are supposed to be met, and often they are not. Even once a complaint has been filed, many times nothing is done about standards violations. This is why companys have their Instructor mills in foreign lands, where standards take a back seat to profits.

 

[tomfcrist]

Where is your evidence that I don't get the fact that without facts what you are saying is actually slander? I am trying to show you that you are not really dealing with any facts!

I'm still waiting for the facts. What is your definition of a fact? Please link some facts to back up your supposed statement of fact!

What you are trying to do is say that all PADI instructors are as good as gold and you are horribly mistaken. Once again, slander would be if i was full of ****, however since you read the entire post and would have verified the instructor's current status, you would know that this guy shouldnt be teaching and PADI is doing nothing about it to prevent him from killing a student. OBTW he will hurt or kill somebody, its a matter of time.

Yes this thread is about INSTRUCTOR Training, however the comment that you have such a problem with is that Padi doesnt enforce their standards.....How many instructors has PADI canned in the last 20 years for not teaching to standard? How many more incidents like the post i showed you have gone unresolved?

I'm not going to ever get anywhere with you since you refuse to compromise your tunnel vision stance on divers, Instructors or training so this conversation is over. I will not continue this debate with you, its not worth my time.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Proposing zero to hero programs is a marketing decision and depends on how a certain scuba school plans to make money.

Have you ever heard of young brilliant kids that complete their High School requirements by age 12 or 13, and then the most prestigious Universities in the land compete over who gets to let them continue their fast track to the title of Doctorate? All these scuba schools are doing is allowing the students who have the necessary prerequisites the opportunity to continue their educational journey. If they don't pass they don't proceed, but if they pass and they want to proceed why not let them proceed?

Why there are so many in places like Thailand? Because Thailand is a typical gap year destination so no wonder dive schools try to make some money out of it.
Clearly other places in the world can't even offer that because you are not going to say Florida for a gap year or California or even Europe because that will cost you a fortune just to stay.

Do you know how many scuba schools there are in Florida? Anyway, this thread is concerning non USA scuba schools.

On to the second issue are zero to hero instructors so crap?
I believe you need to have some real evidence. The main issue I see is that as you as diving operation will actually not hire a zero to hero instructor there is a very unlikely chance that those guys will actually make it to be a working instructor

I think you would actually find that many graduates of many Instructor Factories do actually get placed by the school in instructor jobs. Before I had even finished all the courses I signed up for I was offered a job with Nekton, and my Florida school would have had to give me back some money if I had taken it! I was then also offered a job while on the boat ride back to shore from my last planned dives; which I took for the remainder of my housing arrangement but declined the resulting permanent employment offer, because I was returning to Hawaii. Once in Hawaii, I was hired by the first and only shop I looked for a job with. Three jobs offered and two taken within 6 months of finishing my nearly Zero to Past Hero training!

Sadly there are also the other places that offer internships having some desperate guy working for free to get some experience so that they do not have to pay respected and experienced professionals to do work.

From what I see/read/hear, the internship is for true Zero to Hero programs where you need to be a diver for a minimum 6 months before entering the IDC, but if one applies themselves there is a multitude of diving and experiencing to be had. So many people have negative opinions of things they really have no physical knowledge of. Most of these training locations are also places lots of divers go to dive so the student/interns see much, much more than a DM candidate that does a few hundred dives in an Indiana quarry for a year and a half.

So the combo zero to hero plus internship desperado can actually produce some fairly bad instructors at least in theory

That is definitly one theory, but I contend many if not most who hold that theory have no facts or experience to back up that theory.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

What you are trying to do is say that all PADI instructors are as good as gold and you are horribly mistaken.

Please slowly re-read everything I have typed in this thread, and even my last 500 posts if you like, and quote me where I have said anything even remotely of that nature. I have made very few claims here other than claiming that your opinions mostly lack the facts to back them up.

Yes this thread is about INSTRUCTOR Training, however the comment that you have such a problem with is that Padi doesnt enforce their standards.....How many instructors has PADI canned in the last 20 years for not teaching to standard? How many more incidents like the post i showed you have gone unresolved?

Well I don't have copies of the Undersea Journal going back 20 years, but the Undersea Journal lists suspended and revoked instructors and instructor trainers in the back pages when it happens, and it does. I am not the one making slanderous statements so I am not the one who needs to come up with the proof. If you want to prove your statements I am still wondering if an SB thread is considered proof without outside corroboration.

I contend that your view on the subject of this thread is the one that is narrow minded, while I on the other hand think it is very likely that the possibility exists one could become a good instructor by spending 6-9 months at a busy tourist diving destination diving and learning non-stop. In what way do I need to compromise that belief?

I'm not going to ever get anywhere with you since you refuse to compromise your tunnel vision stance on divers, Instructors or training so this conversation is over. I will not continue this debate with you, its not worth my time.

 

[Interceptor121]

I have actually worked with people that do the zero to hero and they usually lack depth. The most visible limitation is that they learn to dive, did their training and got all their experience in one single location.
That is obviously a completely different scenario from a diver that has been in 10+ places and experienced different conditions and environments.
Maybe this path has worked well for some people but a discerning customer will see the difference between a zero to hero and an instructors who is well travelled as a diver. I can tell you because that is the feedback I get.
When I was referring to civilised places like the states I did not mean there are no schools but the business of zero to hero is not of the same dimension of Thailand or Honduras.