Started due do a number of posts in this thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/285410-really-bummed.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/285410-really-bummed.html
DIR kit in teaching scuba
- Thread starter AndyNZ
- Start date
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OP
I guess not just the kit, but the wider issue of raising the bar by teaching skills whilst hovering and (just to make Peter happy!) things like gas management, which are perceived to be "too hard" for entry level scuba courses...
Hopefully this won't turn into an agency bashing issue.... "it's not the agency, it's the instructor".
Specifically with regards to PADI, I've spoken to PADI in the past about both this issues - their guidance was very specific. A PADI instructor can teach a PADI course in a long hose, and indeed a student can have a long hose provided they meet the performance requirements stated for the course.
I've taught OW courses for students wearing a DIR rig - some of the skills become somewhat puerile - snorkel to regulator exchange springs to mind. But the skills that are deemed "difficult to do" in a long hose just take a bit of thought. Regulator recovery is one that I've been asked about - the question being "how does a student do the sweep method with a long hose?". PADI never stipulate how a skill needs to be done, just what needs to be acheived. So a student needs to "Recover a regulator from behind the shoulder and clear it". Take the reg out, drop it behind you, find the long hose coming over your chest and follow it around to get the rig. Voila! I did that plenty of times on my Fundies course when I forgot the clip the main reg off and the instructor flicked it behind my head without realising......!
Never at any point in the PADI standards does it say that a given skill needs to be done kneeling, plenty of PADI course directors have said to me "well, do it neutral if you want to". I tend to introduce skills whilst kneeling, then get them repeated later whilst on fin tips and then whilst hovering. The "official guidance" from PADI on this has been there's nothing wrong with this, provided that students aren't task loaded.
With a recent strong (and small - only 2) students, I tried doing things differently for a number of skills. I demonstrated skills whilst neutral, and didn't say that they had to but one student managed it fairly well. Maybe a case of "monkey see, monkey do?" (no slur intended on the students - but student just copy what they see).
Finally, the big one, gas management..... personally, I tend to agree with the the commonly held view that going through gas calcs for each and every dive for an OW student is a bit much. But there's nothing wrong with introducing the concepts. At OW, I make sure that students realise that it's not how gas gas you surface with that's important, it's how much you leave the bottom with. It's easy then to introduce a few simple rules (MGR rules of thumb) and why the rules are there, and you've got the principles in place.
So, I don't find teaching PADI restrictive at all. I'd even go as far (with tongue firmly in cheek) that PADI is about as DIR as you can get.
Hopefully this won't turn into an agency bashing issue.... "it's not the agency, it's the instructor".
Specifically with regards to PADI, I've spoken to PADI in the past about both this issues - their guidance was very specific. A PADI instructor can teach a PADI course in a long hose, and indeed a student can have a long hose provided they meet the performance requirements stated for the course.
I've taught OW courses for students wearing a DIR rig - some of the skills become somewhat puerile - snorkel to regulator exchange springs to mind. But the skills that are deemed "difficult to do" in a long hose just take a bit of thought. Regulator recovery is one that I've been asked about - the question being "how does a student do the sweep method with a long hose?". PADI never stipulate how a skill needs to be done, just what needs to be acheived. So a student needs to "Recover a regulator from behind the shoulder and clear it". Take the reg out, drop it behind you, find the long hose coming over your chest and follow it around to get the rig. Voila! I did that plenty of times on my Fundies course when I forgot the clip the main reg off and the instructor flicked it behind my head without realising......!
Never at any point in the PADI standards does it say that a given skill needs to be done kneeling, plenty of PADI course directors have said to me "well, do it neutral if you want to". I tend to introduce skills whilst kneeling, then get them repeated later whilst on fin tips and then whilst hovering. The "official guidance" from PADI on this has been there's nothing wrong with this, provided that students aren't task loaded.
With a recent strong (and small - only 2) students, I tried doing things differently for a number of skills. I demonstrated skills whilst neutral, and didn't say that they had to but one student managed it fairly well. Maybe a case of "monkey see, monkey do?" (no slur intended on the students - but student just copy what they see).
Finally, the big one, gas management..... personally, I tend to agree with the the commonly held view that going through gas calcs for each and every dive for an OW student is a bit much. But there's nothing wrong with introducing the concepts. At OW, I make sure that students realise that it's not how gas gas you surface with that's important, it's how much you leave the bottom with. It's easy then to introduce a few simple rules (MGR rules of thumb) and why the rules are there, and you've got the principles in place.
So, I don't find teaching PADI restrictive at all. I'd even go as far (with tongue firmly in cheek) that PADI is about as DIR as you can get.
Glad to hear they were open to teaching the class this way! Hopefully this isn't an isolated incident 
I think UTD teaches (or at one time taught) the neck-touch and standard arm sweep regulator recoveries as part of their standard DIR curriculum; it sounds like that would fit right in as well. The only major difference with how we learned it in PADI is that UTD teaches you to immediately go to your backup reg first, before performing the recovery.
I think UTD teaches (or at one time taught) the neck-touch and standard arm sweep regulator recoveries as part of their standard DIR curriculum; it sounds like that would fit right in as well. The only major difference with how we learned it in PADI is that UTD teaches you to immediately go to your backup reg first, before performing the recovery.
I agree with your thoughts on the mix-and-match approach while maintaining the agencies "minimum" standard.
Nothing you discribes is unsafe, breaches the standard of the agency you are instructing under or distracts from the basic premis of teaching the use of SCUBA equipment.
It is just that some dive professionals have learned certain methods and find that there is no need to go to the "DIR" or cave diving equipment setup for basic open water diving in their local. Whereas, an instructor in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S.A. would consider the equipment set up you refer to as normal and possably important in the environment that they commonly dive.
It's not necessarily the gear that makes a safe and ready diver, it is the basic knowledge of what they are getting into, what the results are of ignoring the basic physics, how to avoid bad situations and what are some reccognized or tried-and-true methods of correcting a bad situation when it occurs.
Nothing you discribes is unsafe, breaches the standard of the agency you are instructing under or distracts from the basic premis of teaching the use of SCUBA equipment.
It is just that some dive professionals have learned certain methods and find that there is no need to go to the "DIR" or cave diving equipment setup for basic open water diving in their local. Whereas, an instructor in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S.A. would consider the equipment set up you refer to as normal and possably important in the environment that they commonly dive.
It's not necessarily the gear that makes a safe and ready diver, it is the basic knowledge of what they are getting into, what the results are of ignoring the basic physics, how to avoid bad situations and what are some reccognized or tried-and-true methods of correcting a bad situation when it occurs.
Thank you Andy.
I just finished preparing a Power Point presentation on "Air Supply Management" to give to the instructional staff of my LDS (to be given on the 28th) -- so the topic is alive and well here.
It will be a while before I have the chance to try out some of the ideas that have been discussed about "raising the bar." For the moment I'll just have to hold my tongue when the Lead Instructor does his "On Your Knees" signal -- even when the student has assumed a neutral (more or less) horizontal position in preparation of doing a skill.
Sigh. The revolution will be won one step at a time!
Hmmmmm.
WWPD (What Would PADI Do), or Naui for that matter, if an instructor chose to certify a strong OW candidate in DIR gear without a snorkel? (Putting aside the obvious question as to why the student isn't taking GUE REC-1). That's probably one of the most popular questions I get as a DM/AI - "Why don't you use a snorkel"?
WWPD (What Would PADI Do), or Naui for that matter, if an instructor chose to certify a strong OW candidate in DIR gear without a snorkel? (Putting aside the obvious question as to why the student isn't taking GUE REC-1). That's probably one of the most popular questions I get as a DM/AI - "Why don't you use a snorkel"?
OP
Firstly, would PADI even know if an instructor chose to do that!?
All my students possess a snorkel. It just isn't always attached to their mask - never anywhere in the standards does it say that it has to be on the mask. Semantics, maybe, but in this case works in my favour.
PADI (aka the DIR Dive Agency!) recognise in many places in student and instructor manuals that a snorkel serves no purpose underwater, so there is no issue with it being in a drysuit pocket.
EDIT: On the GUE Rec1 course, a PADI 5* IDC centre won't be able to teach Rec1 without violating PADI standards, I think. So a student would have to do PADI OW in a DIR style!
OP
Nah, Peter is the lawyer..... I just read the instructor manual. In the cavern course, it explictly says don't wear a snorkel but carry one if surface conditions dictate. Now, the wreck course material talks about long hoses and the limited use of snorkels. There are also places in the OW material where it refers to "snorkels only being of use on the surface".
Dunno if anyone else has noticed, but a lot of the newer PADI promotional material is showing divers without snorkels - the 2008 and 2009 pricelists, posters and specialty of the month material. I actually think that PADI would drop the snorkel if it weren't for pressure from retailers, many of whom undervalue their OW courses to then make money on mask, fins & snorkels.
It would be so easy, I mean.... PADI could become the Professional Association of DIR Instructors...
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I'm a lawyer as well. Takes one to know one!
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