DIR GUE and backup lights

[DIR-Atlanta]

That's the same argument people used to use to defend hose stuffing, and it's just as specious in this instance as it was for that one.

I don't disagree that it's better to address an underlying skill problem, but it's not even remotely the same situation.

With all due respect, the situations are exactly the same. It's basically a "deploy once" approach, with no thought given to how the gear will be restowed when it needs to be.

"Back in the day", most people got by OK with hose stuffing because they were doing short dives just on their back gas, so they never had to restow the hose until the dive was over and they were safely at the surface. However, stuffing does not work on longer dives where you might have to manage an air-share leading into a stage or deco pick-up. Restuffing the hose is a waste of time in that case, so what does the hose stuffer do? Wraps the hose Hogarthian-style for the exit. So why not just be consistent and wrap it to begin with?

It's the same with this light loop thing. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." And it doesn't get much simpler than clipping the light to a D-ring.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

Once you switch to your backup light, you probably aren't going to stow it until you are at the surface anyway.

Unless it also fails, and you have to then go to the tertiary backup. I personally don't like to leave things dangling for any length of time. For deco situations further back in the cave, I will leave my primary light on and clipped, but once I am in the daylight zone (and if visibility is good), I turn that off and stow it, and switch to a small "deco light" that is clipped off in my pocket with my wet notes. Most of my regular cave buddies do the same.

I've even had GUE instructors call it acceptable, although not recommended.

Just out of curiosity, what class and which instructor(s)?

 

[CompuDude]

With all due respect, the situations are exactly the same. It's basically a "deploy once" approach, with no thought given to how the gear will be restowed when it needs to be.

Respectfully, I'm still going to agree to disagree on this.

No loops, the lights are ok with you. Right? Well, if you don't rethread the backup into the loops, that's what you have. No loops. 100% vanilla situation if you choose to restow a deployed light. That's what you're looking for, right?

It's not possible to restuff a long hose (without help, I suppose), and you're left with a MESS that has to dealt with in unconventional and just plain wonky ways. Terrible, I fully agree. You're not left with a mess with the tiny little loops, though. You're left with the exact same (read: normal) configuration YOU use. How is that a mess?

I see a vague parallel you're trying to draw, but I still don't view the situation as "exactly the same" by any stretch.

 

[JeffG]

I don't think there's anything inherently anti-DIR about this little tweak.

I think it a perfect description of anti-DIR thinking and methodology.

I've even had GUE instructors call it acceptable, although not recommended.

Then their instructor group is getting weaker.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I think it a perfect description of anti-DIR thinking and methodology.

Then their instructor group is getting weaker.

Jeff, I agree with both you and CompuDude. Since we've had the same training, I see these loops as being an unnecessary addition to a rig. The muscle memory required to clip a bottle while moving the back-up light's bolt snap out of the way will not become rusty by constant practice. With this method, you could develop a "crutch" dependency and if you needed to clip a bottle when the back-up light has been deployed or the loop has come undone, you'd now be facing the harsh reality of trying to be fluid with an antrophied skill.

However, we could accuse Halcyon of doing the same by producing a 2 cell back up light. If any one of us did that, the community would jeer. But, it is okay if it is JJ, GUE, or Halcyon? For the first time in 10 years of diving in a DIR rig, my right back-up light switched off my primary light two weeks ago. I thought my light had failed. I reached for the switch to check the position and sure enough, it switched off as I exited a wreck. What if that happened in a critical moment? Would I be wrong thinking that trading the security of a 3 cell for a reduced possibility of an accidental switch-off could have merit? Would it be DIR if JJ told me it was? What if both of us vehemently disagreed with him. Are we right and DIR while JJ has become weaker?

One of the points that I have tried to make with the DIR community is that once a diver has a solid handle on the philosophy and on the reasons why equipment protocols are what they are, bright, inventive, and experienced divers should feel free to tweak and modify equipment. Rather than the wheel being reinvented, it can be forged with stronger components. Having switched my primary light to Andrew's new configuration, along with a buddy, we are playing with it and so far we have more options for clipping and the instant dual thumb loops are great! What if you came up with that? Would you be wrong or would you have improved upon something that had room for improvement?

I'm not saying that back-up light loops are one of these better reconfigurations, but without DIR divers playing with slight variations and inventions, tomorrow's brilliant DIR standards changes won't happen - especially as the DIR leaders become older and more set in their ways.

 

[JeffG]

I see these loops as being an unnecessary addition to a rig.

However, we could accuse Halcyon of doing the same by producing a 2 cell back up light.

Sorry, I don't see how they are the same issue.

Replacing a long 3-C backup light to a shorter 2 C LED backup light

vs

A single purpose mod for clipping a backup light.

 

[lamont]

This is basically an "engineering solution to a training problem", which does not really address the underlying issue. If you are struggling with the lights getting in the way of your bottle clipping, then what you need is more practice with bottle clipping, not some new gear convolution to "fix" it.

Or just use smaller bolt snaps on your scouts so that you can't cross clip them with the larger bolt snaps (something which is on my TODO list)

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Sorry, I don't see how they are the same issue.

Replacing a long 3-C backup light to a shorter 2 C LED backup light

vs

A single purpose mod for clipping a backup light.

Why make a 2 cell LED light when the 3 cell Scouts have proven reliability?

Why add a back-up light loop when bottles and snaps can be clipped to the same rings?

Experimentation. Companies and individuals come up with ideas, try them out, and sometimes innovation results or another problem is solved from the springboard of the original idea.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

I see a vague parallel you're trying to draw, but I still don't view the situation as "exactly the same" by any stretch.

The parallel that I am really trying to draw is that in both cases the end state is reached via a flawed conclusion (namely that it is OK to overcome a skill deficiency by modifying the gear).

The DIR gear config is built on the Law of Primacy and the premise that everything scales up, so that once you learn a particular skill, it does not have to be relearned as you progress through the later training. The implication of that is that you can never have two methods of doing anything - whatever you learn first has to pretty well work for everything moving forward. Hose stuffing and light loops are a direct contradiction to that philosophy.

 

[CompuDude]

The parallel that I am really trying to draw is that in both cases the end state is reached via a flawed conclusion (namely that it is OK to overcome a skill deficiency by modifying the gear).

The DIR gear config is built on the Law of Primacy and the premise that everything scales up, so that once you learn a particular skill, it does not have to be relearned as you progress through the later training. The implication of that is that you can never have two methods of doing anything - whatever you learn first has to pretty well work for everything moving forward. Hose stuffing and light loops are a direct contradiction to that philosophy.

I can agree with you on that completely (except the light loop part).

I'm not sure I can agree that things on a d-ring never move around, however. I would think a diver should be able deal with bolt snaps clipped in more than one way on a d-ring. (which could beg the question, why the loops in the first place? answer: I just like how it cleans things up a little, it's not a big deal either way)