DIR: God's gift to diving or Hell spawn?

[MikeFerrara]

Since this thread seems hijacked for good and no one is complaining, I'll continue.

Jonnythan, good for you! I'm glad you felt it worthwhile and recommend you give it your all.

However, let's ask the question, what are we underwater for?

Most of the people I run into couldn't give a monkey's toss what they were wearing on their back, or how they fin through the water. They want to see a barracuda, old wreck, sea otter, etc, etc. They can do that with a minimum of effort & expense. Sure, they may never know the joys of perfect trim and a back kick, but they'll get by just fine, thank you.

In my last post I suggested that you were just being defensive. I think you prove it in this post.

Most of the people you're talking about that you say don't care, also don't know the difference. They can't miss it if they don't know it exists. They don't know the joys of perfect trim because most instructors done't show it or explain it in their class.

You as an instructor don't give them a choice. You've decided that they don't need to be able to dive to be a underwater tourist.

Most get by just fine (depending on your definition) I guess but read the accident reports or the many incedent reports on this board. Aside from medical problems almost every single one can be linked to basic skills issues. You can go through as many as you want but the same things crop up over and over. Divers with good basic skills just don't have those problems.

This attitude that any one can dive without learning how first is getting divers hurt. Maybe it's oonly 100 a year dead and 1000 or so hurt in the DAN database but it's always the same causes over and over.

Get some perspective... You folks remind me of people I see all the time hiking in my area. Seems that if you can't be prepared for the worst possible weather in the remotest section of the Rockies, well, you're just not a hiker. Got a news flash. Rec hiking is wonderful, you don't need to plan for every contingency, and yes, you may die where others with more experience may live if the worst occurs. REI is the mother of all evils too, trying to sell you everything you don't need, and it is their fault.

Speaking of hiking. Some years ago I took my kids to a hunter safety course which, BTW, I'd recommend for any one who spends any time outdoors. I even think it was free but I don't remember for certain.

Did you know that most of the hikers that die of hypothermia do so when it's like 60 degrees outside? It doesn't happen as often when it's really cold because they know it's cold and they need to dress for it and maybe not go as far. But...on a nice spring day when it feels warm they stray too far from the car (some navigation issues here too) and maybe get caught in a little rain, fall in a creek or maybe it just gets dark and the temp drops. They don't have a chance. Some very basic knowledge would have saved them. You would argue that the numbers that die that way just aren't too bad. ok.

Of course, your risk was far greater driving to the trailhead than even that last step at the end of the trees. Would covering your a** be that much more difficult? For the experienced hiker, of course not. Because they've had the training, experience, equipment and knowledge base to work from. Would most people hike if they had to achieve that before their first 3 mile loop - NO.

I'd agree that driving a car is more dangerous. Most of us have to drive though. No one has to dive.

Now, not to startle anyone, but to yank this thread back on topic, one of the reasons that DIR folks get a negative reaction is the fact that DIRs can't seem to say, "I dive this way because I like A, B and C about it". Instead, it's like DIR folks have ex-smoker disease. "I used to do it this way, but now I do it that way and everyone else should too".

Solution - dive, however you wish, and enjoy what few get to see firsthand.

I disagree. You've been given many reasons. I've given you a bunch and I'm not even DIR. LOL

You're whole arguement seems to be that you and your students don't need good buoyancy control, trim or buddy skills.

I don't claim to be DIR and don't care if you do either. Since you are an instructor I do find your attitude and lack of understanding in the importance of good basic skills for both the safety and the enjoyment of diving disturbing though.

 

[gj62]

You're whole arguement seems to be that you and your students don't need good buoyancy control, trim or buddy skills.

I don't claim to be DIR and don't care if you do either. Since you are an instructor I do find your attitude and lack of understanding in the importance of good basic skills for both the safety and the enjoyment of diving disturbing though.

As I said previously, I haven't taught in 20 years, so stop referring to "my students".

Also, I have not said that you don't need good basic skills. What I have stated is that you don't need to perfect the skills to dive safely, comfortably or enjoyably, and you can have good basic skills without a Hogarth rig. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Mike, I remain truly confused regarding your position. I've stated all along that DIR has alot of merit. However, I also choose to take from DIR certain aspects that make sense for my diving, yet leave the rest. You seem roughly the same, though you have adopted perhaps a bit more of the gear config it sounds like. You aren't DIR, and have not taken a DIR course (same as I). Why?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have nothing to defend. I didn't get certified for several years after I started diving and I haven't taught a student in 20+ years.

Well, they still teach it much the same. They still teach like the bc hasen't been invented yet and they took out lots of the swimming and stuff

I feel sorry for you. If you can only have fun when you are good at something, you'll miss alot in life...

You might be able to safely have fun bowling or golfing without being very good at it. Diving isn't bowling though. Throwing a gutter ball or slicing into the water won't get you hurt, hurt a buddy or damage the environment. Bad diving can do all of that.

 

[gj62]

You might be able to safely have fun bowling or golfing without being very good at it. Diving isn't bowling though.

Agreed - but I was responding to his comment (not yours) that you had to be good at something to enjoy it.

This includes sports where your risk of serious injury is slight - tennis, or that is statistically more dangerous than diving, like skiing. However, I know lots of folks that stick to the easy slopes and have a helluva good time without bombing through the trees. So, I stick by my comment - I feel sorry for him if he has to be good at something to enjoy it...

 

[MikeFerrara]

As I said previously, I haven't taught in 20 years, so stop referring to "my students".

Fair enough

Also, I have not said that you don't need good basic skills. What I have stated is that you don't need to perfect the skills to dive safely, comfortably or enjoyably, and you can have good basic skills without a Hogarth rig. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

I'll agree with this. You don't have to be perfect and diving can be done well in other configurations but I believe configuration is important and often overlooked.

Mike, I remain truly confused regarding your position. I've stated all along that DIR has alot of merit. However, I also choose to take from DIR certain aspects that make sense for my diving, yet leave the rest. You seem roughly the same, though you have adopted perhaps a bit more of the gear config it sounds like. You aren't DIR, and have not taken a DIR course (same as I). Why?

I understand the confusion. I first heard of DIR during my entry level trimix training. I was already an instructor at the time. While I didn't know anything about DIR I did know that I wasn't happy with the state of dive training.

I spent lots of time argueing that you don't have to be DIR to have good technique and that's true. If you hang out at the caves every one is pretty good in the water. At the local dive sites or at a resort some place things look completely different though. The divers I see who have done a DIRF class and get a few dives of practice are so far ahead of all their peers that there is little comparison.

I had a chance to sit in on a DIRF and part of another one. The material is good and the class is well thought out. The amazing thing is that they're making such waves just by teaching the same things that are taught in an OW class only they teach it much better. Throw in a few things of their own and what it can do for a diver is really something.

What I saw wasn't really a surprise but the experienced divers (including instructors and some very long time divers) didn't do any better than the newer divers. We're just talking about basic skills here. Ascending and descending together, sharing air, clearing a mask or swimming in a circle staying together without making a mess.

After having gone through the entire recreational diving educational progression I am of the firm beliefe that it's a joke and a wast of time and money. There are instructors other than GUE instructors who teach this stuff but not many and agencies don't require it.

If I was asked to advise a new diver on what classes they should take to get the most bang for the buck I'd advise them to skip all the bs at the local dive shop and take a DIRF after OW. It will get a diver further less expensively and more consistantly than anything else out there. This is just to pick up the things they missed in getting their OW card.

If they want to go a little deeper most take a AOW and do a quick bounce to 60+ without learning anything. The GUE rec triox makes a good alternative and focuses on the real issues of diving deeper. There are other classes and instructors but try to find them.

If I was going to start over that's what I would do if I had the chance.

 

[gj62]

If I was going to start over that's what I would do if I had the chance.

OK. Makes sense. Will you be switching to GUE as an instructor? If not, why not?

 

[MikeFerrara]

OK. Makes sense. Will you be switching to GUE as an instructor? If not, why not?

No I won't be crossing over. If I could start over that's what I'd do but I've dumped enough time and money into teaching. Traveling the country to assist in DIRF classes and who knows what else would represent a significant investment and I'll just leave it to others I think. I'm burned out on the dive industry. I let my PADI membership run out and stayed on with IANTD for the time being but after I fill a couple of teaching obligations I may let my insurance go next. For now I plan on keeping my IANTD membership just in case I ever change my mind. All in all I like IANTD. If they could make their instructors actually do what the standards say they should it wouldn't be half bad.

I've done my bit and shot my wad so to speak. There's still lots of wrecks and caves that I haven't seen yet and that's what I'me going to concentrate on. During the time I've been teaching (I also owned a dive shop for almost 4 years) my life was on hold. I'm catching up with family, other hobbies, my house and even my own diving.

I spent part of yesterday making some arrows , shooting my bow with my son and getting equipment ready to dive cannonball next weekend. I still have to change the filters in the compressor and mix gas but maybe I'll get to that tonight. LOL

 

[roakey]

You might be able to safely have fun bowling or golfing without being very good at it. Diving isn't bowling though. Throwing a gutter ball or slicing into the water won't get you hurt, hurt a buddy or damage the environment. Bad diving can do all of that.

Actually skiing comes to mind -- many times I see folks that don't want to take the lessons struggling on the slopes, totally exhausted after a full day of using every muscle in their body to stay standing up.

There are many, however, who invest some work in their skiing, take lessons and improve. Yhea it's a little work while you're taking the lessons and a little more work to practice what you've been taught, but then when you just "go out to ski to have fun" it's so much easier and you enjoy it so much more than the person, as gj would argue, who "just wants to go out and have fun without all that work."

It's actually more work to NOT work at your diving, I mean skiing than it is to be a duffer.

The *huge* difference is that a poor skier gets to see good skiers all the time on the slopes. The state of diving these days is in such miserable shape that many divers, including instructors don't even know what good diving looks like anymore, and have no reference of what they *should* know (and, in the case of instructors, what they should teach).

I can state from observation that Colorado is in horrible shape in terms of SCUBA instruction and the skill level of divers. Having one the highest per-capita diver populations of any state, most of the divers are the "go to Cozumel" types that have no concept of trim, they're taught by "go to Cozumel" type instructors that have no concept of trim and because they're so many divers, some go on to become the "go to Cozumel" type instructors that will teach even more divers.

The surrounding states are in very much the same boat (though not nearly the dive population as Colorado), so being from the "Rockies" me wonders exactly what kind of diver gj is...

I dove for over 20 years and became a pretty good diver compared to the norm of divers around me, then I took a DIRF class and found out that I was almost completely poo. I'm still working on it, but now I've actually SEEN what good diving looks like and I can work toward that goal. In the meantime, my diving has become far easier and relaxing than it's ever been before.

People who haven't seen a really good diver in the water have no concept of what's possible. The criminal thing about this is that the basics ARE easy and simple to teach, but they're not being done (I'm not talking about any DIR gear here, or really anything that should be considered DIR concepts). You don't have to be diving the 'Doria to benefit from DIR techniques, just floating above a warm reef can benefit from what's taught in a DIRF class.

Heck, last time I was in Cozumel, I had the DM asking ME questions, and I don't know jack compared to folks like MHK, etc.

Roak

 

[gj62]

I can state from observation that Colorado is in horrible shape in terms of SCUBA instruction and the skill level of divers. Having one the highest per-capita diver populations of any state, most of the divers are the "go to Cozumel" types that have no concept of trim, they're taught by "go to Cozumel" type instructors that have no concept of trim and because they're so many divers, some go on to become the "go to Cozumel" type instructors that will teach even more divers.

The surrounding states are in very much the same boat (though not nearly the dive population as Colorado), so being from the "Rockies" me wonders exactly what kind of diver gj is...

Roak

I've not seen much diving in CO, because there are no popular or interesting sites (at least none that I've found). A few high-altitude lake dives just to get wet, and the Blue Hole doesn't really give me the op to comment on a regionally-based ability issue. Incrimination by generalization is really not a valid arguement, Roak. Most of my diving was done long before I moved to CO. PM if you want a more complete description.

However, I guess I'm back to asking why there is disparagement regarding divers that go once or twice a year to warm water to get wet and led around by DMs? Obviously, there are those that don't exercise good judgement and blindly ignore their training and put themselves into dangerous situations. This is more of a personal failing than an industry failing. But there are also good shops in Coz and elsewhere that will cater to a casual diver and give them a safe, pleasant experience despite having poor trim... (I'm not saying that you *should* have poor trim, just that it doesn't necessarily prevent you from enjoying your Coz trip)...

 

[roakey]

Mike, keep up the good work, you have a higher tolerance for this stuff than I do. Some people just aren't worth the effort. I'm going back to see what I can do for people that don't actively support mediocrity in diving. I can do far more with less effort for people who have an open mind. Trying to pry one open is a poor return on my investment.

Roak