DIR: God's gift to diving or Hell spawn?

[Scuba_Vixen]

"Its kinda like this: you can drive a Toyota Tercell all you life and think its fine...until that one great day when you get a chance to drive a BMW (or alike) and you say to yourself "Damn i should have done this earlier!"


The point you're missing is that there are a vast percentage of folks for whom the tercel is ALL they ever want, need or expect. There are probably as many who see no great benefit to a BMW for the extra $$ you have to pay for it. The vast majority of rec divers are Happy with the usual rec gear config and the benefits of Hog. are not within their ability to understand, and more importantly, not required for the dives they do.

For the average diver, you don't need a bmw to go pick up the kids from school, the toyota will be just fine.

Darlene


Very well put, Michael

 

[MikeFerrara]

"Its kinda like this: you can drive a Toyota Tercell all you life and think its fine...until that one great day when you get a chance to drive a BMW (or alike) and you say to yourself "Damn i should have done this earlier!"


The point you're missing is that there are a vast percentage of folks for whom the tercel is ALL they ever want, need or expect. There are probably as many who see no great benefit to a BMW for the extra $$ you have to pay for it. The vast majority of rec divers are Happy with the usual rec gear config and the benefits of Hog. are not within their ability to understand, and more importantly, not required for the dives they do.

For the average diver, you don't need a bmw to go pick up the kids from school, the toyota will be just fine.

Darlene


Very well put, Michael

Except that in most cases they don't choose the standard wreck gear and it's not a matter of that being all they've ever wanted. It's a matter of that's all they ever are TOLD ABOUT.

Also it's not a matter of whether or not they can understand. Again they're not given the chance because hey're just not exposed to it. Going along with that, they don't know whether it's "required" or useful for the dives they do or not.

It's not like most have a chance to choose. Just look at some of the posts we get on the board. "I lost my buddy and the DM said to do this or that and wo messed up?" Sorry, they just don't know and that's different than choosing.

 

[IndigoBlue]

IB,
You are entitilled to your opinion (obviously)but your gonna have to work on backing you statements up if you wana make folks see your point. Its like me saying "Im the best diver in the world" and when someone ask me why i think that or want proof I simply dont respond or just say some other non-founded statment.

Give us all a break.

I am actually not interested in debating the weaknesses of GUE-style d.i.r. I was more interested in answering the original question as to why things skyrocket fast whenever you mention d.i.r. in a non-GUE setting.

For a change, let me tell you what I think is good about GUE-style d.i.r., and leave it at that. Then anyone can decide for themselves whether the good part is applicable for them.

GUE-style d.i.r. is an extremely good system for penetrating caves. Everything is standardized. That way you know how your buddies are configured. You have all decided on an air sharing protocol (signal me, and be prepared to receive my primary).

GUE-style d.i.r. is very streamlined, and divers usually have good horizontal buoyancy.

GUE divers practicing d.i.r. normally have a very good light and two backups.

Gue divers practicing d.i.r. will be using the same mixes, which they will be fairly familiar with.

Concepts of GUE-style d.i.r. that I completely agree with (although my buddies do not all agree):

--donating the primary is the best way to guarantee a diver of a fully functional 2nd stage;

--wearing the backup 2nd stage on an elastic necklace ensures that it will be quickly and easily available to yourself;

--horizontal positioning is the ideal trim

--carrying a backup mask at all times is critical

--smaller ScubaPro or Turtle solid fins are preferable to larger fins and split fins

Now, if you absolutely positively must go into an underwater cave, this is one of the best systems available, short of ... hmmm... a CCR or a sidemount system.

A group of divers at the dive store where I get my fills were discussing Halcyon going into the rebreather market. So there might be another good book coming out about d.i.r. procedures applicable to them. Should be good reading.

 

[pipedope]

Except that in most cases they don't choose the standard wreck gear and it's not a matter of that being all they've ever wanted. It's a matter of that's all they ever are TOLD ABOUT.

This is largely a matter of GUE still being very small.
People looking around for training will not find GUE classes and the shops and instructors will sell them what they have.

As GUE grows and becomes more available this will be less of a problem.

GUE will need to learn to market to the general begining diver public. Not an easy task.

 

[jonnythan]

Out of curiosity, how many cave dives using a CCR does IB have?

 

[IndigoBlue]

The ignor feature is working nicely.

 

[jonnythan]

The ignor feature is working nicely.

:lol3: I wouldn't expect anything less

 

[roakey]

I am actually not interested in debating the weaknesses of GUE-style d.i.r.

That's rich. Ok, in kind:

I'm not interested in debating how utterly wrong, misguided and naive IB is.

GUE-style d.i.r. is an extremely good system for penetrating caves. Everything is standardized. That way you know how your buddies are configured. You have all decided on an air sharing protocol (signal me, and be prepared to receive my primary).

GUE-style is an extremely good system for beginning divers floating over a warm reef. Instead of having to deal with multiple configurations of equipment, having one standard configuration allows a new diver with little experience a simple way to respond to problems and emergencies. A good argument could be made that "personal preference" is a more advanced technique, one that should only be employed by divers who have a lot of experience and keep their cool such that they can sort through the multiple choices that face a diver with differently configured buddies.

Of course Hick's Law says that personal preference is a bad idea, but the anti-DIR folks are too intersted in arguing to actually acknowledge known psychological limits on ability...

Steeeeeeerike 1.

GUE-style d.i.r. is very streamlined, and divers usually have good horizontal buoyancy.

I agree, but the problem here is that ALL divers, even OW divers, should exhibit this.

GUE divers practicing d.i.r. normally have a very good light and two backups.

You need lights to dive DIR?

Steeeeeeerike 2.

Gue divers practicing d.i.r. will be using the same mixes, which they will be fairly familiar with.

You need special gasses to dive DIR?

Steeeeeerike 3. You're outta here.

You want to know why DIR discussions blow up? It's because people that don't know jack about DIR pontificate on its shortcomings. We're left in the position having to respond to the lies, or let the lies stand.

But hey, if half the lies told by the anti-DIR folks were true, I'd hate DIR too.

Roak

 

[gj62]

That's rich. Ok, in kind:

I'm not interested in debating how utterly wrong, misguided and naive IB is.

GUE-style is an extremely good system for beginning divers floating over a warm reef. Instead of having to deal with multiple configurations of equipment, having one standard configuration allows a new diver with little experience a simple way to respond to problems and emergencies. A good argument could be made that "personal preference" is a more advanced technique, one that should only be employed by divers who have a lot of experience and keep their cool such that they can sort through the multiple choices that face a diver with differently configured buddies.

Of course Hick's Law says that personal preference is a bad idea, but the anti-DIR folks are too intersted in arguing to actually acknowledge known psychological limits on ability...

Roak

Once the preference choice is made, there is roughly the same amount of alternatives in the decision tree as with DIR, so Hick's does not apply to the individual. There are 2 exceptions I can see to this rule:

1) The diver changes his/her rig all the time. Generally, a new diver will be renting their equipment, which necessitates the "change in rig". This is unfortunate, but most folks can't afford, or have not had enough experience with gear to feel comfortable purchasing equipment before they've done this for awhile. That said, *most* of the key equipment is fairly standardized in their placement and operation - reducing the logarithmic increase in decisioning.

2) Interaction between individuals using different rigs. I'll fall back to the last sentence in #1.

Yes, DIR removes most of these issues - but so what? I agree that a reduction in risk in valuable, but we're dancing around an issue that can't be proved - that DIR methods in normal rec diving will reduce risk at a rate that will make training & skill retention efforts worthwhile for the rec diver.

Besides, as you all have stated, you can do all this (or adopt parts and pieces you like) and not be, or ever have heard of, DIR.

And yes, Roak, there are zealots on every side of this arguement, which tends to add heat to the sauce...

 

[gj62]

Do you need a 7 ft hose in OW to share air? Maybe not but it sure makes if comfy and the hose is stowed in a way that doesn't leave that unsightly, drag rich loop of hose sticking out to the side.

Yes, my top priorities when I rig up are whether I'm pretty and the drag that 30" of hose creates. If I can't feel it tugging on my mouth, I doubt I notice the difference in effort during finning...

The bc...
Sure you can get trim in any bc but they don't secure the tank as sucurely and in most cases there's mor than 2% additional drag but whatever. They're also just not as clean but yes you could dive in it.

You could also dive without it, as I did when I started & dove without a wetsuit(yep, just a BP, no wing). However, I like my Zeagle & my SP stab jacket. I don't grock your comment about holding a tank securely - mine sure as heck stays in the middle of my back - just where I put it on every dive.

I also clean my gear each day, so it is just as clean...

Compounding factors are the long HP hoses with boat paddle type consols. More hoses sticking out and clutter. I see more dangling than anything and even when clipped there's that large loop of hose sticking out to the side. Again it just doesn't seem as clean or that it works as well as having a depth gauge on the wrist where it's always visable without changing position and without a long HP hose.

During lobster season or when spearfishing, the last thing I want on my wrist is something that will tangle in a line or bangs against the rocks as I put my hand in a hole. Again, I'll worry about the drag when I need every last ounce of strength to drag my behind up the ladder onto the boat...

Having diver need to search for an alternate air source doesn't seem like a good idea either.

Mine always seem to stay where I clip them. Must just be me...

Has nothing to do with diving in an overhead. It has to do with efficient movement and non silting. You live in a tropical paradise where divers can stay 20 ft off the bottom. Here divers swim a bit closer to the Bottom so they can see it and the traditional flutter kick is just murder on the vis and the environment in general. It's funny. They think the vis in our quarries is bad. What they don't realize is that it's only bad when they're there. LOL

So are you saying that DIR may have situational applicability? Careful Mike, you're almost agreeing with me again...

If a diver preferes a sloppy, dangly configuration, cool but where's the advantage in it? I've used both and found no advantage in the more typical configuration and methods and did find many disadvantages.

Do they need an advantage? Is it really an advantage, or is it a preference?

Learning to dive well in a streamlined, functional configuration doesn't cost any more and may cost a good deal less. It makes diving easier and more fun yet we have an arguement here that it's more than a rec diver needs.

More in terms of training and skill development. Plus, until GUE is as popular as PADI, try renting BP/W and a long hose w/bungeed 2nd. You may haul your gear everywhere you go, but there are many who don't...