DIN/Yoke question

[cashew]

I am planning to go ice diving early next year. I understand that with ice diving, you are required to have a second set of regulators for backup in the event your first set free flows.

My current regulator set is a Sherwood SR2 with a yoke connector. I have been looking at getting the Atomic M1s as a second set, but would like to get them with a DIN connector as I also plan to pick up some steel tanks in the next few months and most steel tanks have DIN connectors rather than yoke.

Can I mix DIN and yoke connectors for ice diving? If not, is it ok to use a DIN to yoke converter when ice diving, or will that cause issues with a potential for free flow?

 

[IVC]

I'll answer only the simple part about the converter. It will not affect your free flow characteristics since it's only a piece of pipe with no moving parts to freeze. It doesn't even have an o-ring - DIN connector has one inside, yoke valve has the other.

Whether it's a good idea is up to someone who's done ice diving. Personally, I wouldn't take anything of the kind into any overhead environment, if anything because it's bulky. DIN to yoke seems to be best suited for warm water vacations and coral reefs.

 

[chrisch]

For ice you really need a redundant gas source like a pony or a side mounted tank. Are you thinking you should have an H valve tank?

A lot of training organisations rope the diver to the surface team and think that is adequate. It is not a very clever idea IMHO. We used to dive under the lake ice and the standard kit for us was our cave gear - doubles (manifolded). I haven't seen a yoke fitting in years so no idea if it would fare better or worse. The freezing is generally due to the breathing rate and so as things go wrong the anxiety increases the breathing rate and freezes the back up source too. A completely redundant system gets over that.

With an H valve the freeflow is still emptying the tank after switching to the other reg. Then you have to get out sharpish before the tank empties.

 

[tursiops]

I'm only familiar with the PADI and the SDI Ice diving courses. Neither "requires" any special valves or redundant air sources or even an H or Y valve, although PADI does "recommend" a redundant air source such as a pony or an H or a Y valve. DIN or Yoke is irrelevant. The DIN-to-Yoke doughnut is fine, so you can indeed use one DIN and one Yoke together. Note post #2 is incorrect: the converter has two o-rings...one that is like the one on the end of a DIN reg, and one that is like the one on the front of a standard Yoke valve. The only ice diving I've done has used doubles, but most of the team were on a Y or H valve.

 

[olphart]

For ice you really need a redundant gas source like a pony or a side mounted tank. Are you thinking you should have an H valve tank?

A lot of training organisations rope the diver to the surface team and think that is adequate. It is not a very clever idea IMHO. We used to dive under the lake ice and the standard kit for us was our cave gear - doubles (manifolded). I haven't seen a yoke fitting in years so no idea if it would fare better or worse. The freezing is generally due to the breathing rate and so as things go wrong the anxiety increases the breathing rate and freezes the back up source too. A completely redundant system gets over that.

With an H valve the freeflow is still emptying the tank after switching to the other reg. Then you have to get out sharpish before the tank empties.

And/or shut down the offending post. Hence the H valve. Not as easy as BM or SM, but quite doable if you've practiced, just like regular doubles drills

 

[chrisch]

And/or shut down the offending post. Hence the H valve. Not as easy as BM or SM, but quite doable if you've practiced, just like regular doubles drills

Agreed, but as it (shutdown) is not a drill in most ice courses the assumption on my part is the diver is not practiced and competent in H valve shutdown. I would go further and say that an awful lot of divers that have not undergone technical (hate that term but you know what I mean) level training will struggle to keep buoyancy while dealing with a freeflow and shutdown situation. Add in the stress of the tether and things are going wrong in multiples.

I dislike pony tanks quite strongly but this is one time they have a real use. I also very much like the idea of a drop tank though the ice opening and a light on that tank to help orient the diver back to safety, the drop tank (if you can unclip it) is a good tool where there are multiple divers. The recreational agencies seem to think ice is a suitable environment in which to put AOW level divers into an overhead environment, solo, with a tether they have never used before and environmental conditions that will freeflow some low end regulators. I beg to differ,

 

[cashew]

For ice you really need a redundant gas source like a pony or a side mounted tank. Are you thinking you should have an H valve tank? .

Yes, I was going to be doing the PADI ice diver certification, and as @tursiops pointed out, PADI recommends a redundant air source such as a pony or H or Y valve. I was leaning towards going with an H valve setup.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

If I were to ice dive - I would seriously consider doubles or pony for true independent redundancy.
H or Y valves are considered redundant but not independent - for me especially with a hard overhead (ice) - it would not be a consideration for my risk level.
If it is cost that is driving you to H or Y valve - perhaps wait another year before you can afford the equipment to keep yourself safe.
Either way make sure you make an informed decision.
Safe diving -

 

[cashew]

If I were to ice dive - I would seriously consider doubles or pony for true independent redundancy.
H or Y valves are considered redundant but not independent - for me especially with a hard overhead (ice) - it would not be a consideration for my risk level.
If it is cost that is driving you to H or Y valve - perhaps wait another year before you can afford the equipment to keep yourself safe.
Either way make sure you make an informed decision.
Safe diving -

Cost isn't an issue. (I'm pretty sure a M1 first/second stage set will cost me more than a pony bottle). I just have never dove doubles before and didn't think ice diving was a good place to start learning that. I guess I could just get a pony. Do pony bottles normally have their own regulator setup or would I still have to get a separate set for that (And then do I need an octo for my pony?)

 

[lowviz]

... I just have never dove doubles before and didn't think ice diving was a good place to start learning that.

I would agree. You will be in heavy thermal protection and bulky gloves. You need true redundancy, but not tons of gas. Half hour max and remember that most of the fun is on the surface under the ice. Gas lasts rather well there.

I guess I could just get a pony. Do pony bottles normally have their own regulator setup or would I still have to get a separate set for that (And then do I need an octo for my pony?)

Pony is fine, so is yoke. I use DIN but many, many ice divers use yoke.

Pony: No octo, one primary, one secondary, a pressure gauge, and (optional) a hose with a shrader valve connection as a backup gas supply for your wing or suit.

"Safe" ice diving is all over the map. I'll offer two extremes and would gladly dive with either.

First the HIGH enders: WVFA76home Scroll way down to "Ice Diving Rescue Training" and click on the slide show at the bottom of that box. (several pics of me in there, BTW) Great story too. Kelly (saving up for her wedding at the time) showed up in a wetsuit and was only going to cert as a tender, surface support.

She saw all the fun the guys were having and got permission to dive wet. She didn't really need it, but the guys re-warmed her between dives, see pic of her in a cocoon. She did the recoveries and certed, happy camper.

Second, the "Recreational" approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7bJ646mgow I would dive with them too.

And finally, no thread on ice diving is complete until someone pulls out this old and tired vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIs00QjiJZQ

Tip: Don't breathe or purge your secondaries in the air if they are wet and air temp is cold. Keep them in the water and you will have far fewer problems.