difficulties to breath with open eyes without mask

[formernuke]

It is a well known phenomenon, known as glottis reflex. I already wrote about this in other posts.
It is a neo-natal reflex, which is very useful for avoiding children to breath water if the fall in water.
Usually this reflex attenuates and disappears in a few years. When I was teaching finned swimming to children 6 years and above, only 1 over 4 was still experiencing troubles breathing from the snorkel without a mask.
Going to adults probably this falls down to 1 over 10, but is still a relatively frequent problem.
The reflex is triggered by a neurotransmitters on the face, around the nostrils. Usually a mask cover these receptors, avoiding the problem. But if the mask is flooded or removed, the reflex can be triggered, and you cannot breath anymore.
People suffering of this problem can be trained to overcome the temporary block with a number of exercises and techniques. One very effective is to swim at the surface breathing from the snorkel without the mask. Initially with eyes closed and nose closed with fingers. Then you gently release one nostril, then the other, open one eye, and then the other. Repeat it for many hours, until you can get proper control of the reflex.
This kind of training must be repeated periodically, as if you do not practice it for years, the risk that the reflex kicks in during the wrong moment can resurface.

Very interesting.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Having found out about this reflex I do wonder-- Angelo previously explained that basically with a very few people this natural reflex in the very young just doesn't go away with age. I wonder how many actually have the problem as adults vs. how many just have poor airway control? Probably is no real way to find out.

Airway control means capability of superseding your natural reflexes. There are many reflexes which can interfere with scuba diving, the glottis reflex is just one: https://www.nature.com/gimo/contents/pt1/full/gimo11.html
Another very famous reflex is the diving reflex, which is common in all mammals: Diving reflex - Wikipedia
Generally speaking, the body of all mammals is genetically programmed for free diving. Scuba diving is something "against nature", our body REFUSES to breath underwater. So these reflexes, which are a natural way of avoiding drowning and allowing to dive quite deep on your breath, can become dangerous for a scuba diver.
During training, the instructor should try to trigger these reflexes, and teach the student to counterfeit them.
A number of training exercises have been developed exactly for teaching how to control the soft palate, the glottis and your lungs. At the time, breathing control was a severe prerequisite for scuba diving, as most of the training was done with a pure-oxygen re-breather, the ARO, which REQUIRES a complete breathing control, and to be able to perform both an inspiratory pause (long) and an expiratory pause (short)
I was introduced to these concepts during my instructor course, hold by Duilio Marcante at Nervi, Genoa, in September 1978. So it is all known since decades, and I find strange that these concepts are not known to all divers.
But I have seen in fast OW courses the instructors simply telling the students to "breath normally", which of course is exactly the opposite as training them to get a good control on their respiratory system.
I do not want to start again here the discussion about breathing "properly" or "normally", indeed...
We had this discussion already several times regarding reducing the SAC, reducing CO2 retention, or avoiding the pause for the risk of lung over-distention if surfacing without expiring...

 

[TMHeimer]

Airway control means capability of superseding your natural reflexes. There are many reflexes which can interfere with scuba diving, the glottis reflex is just one: https://www.nature.com/gimo/contents/pt1/full/gimo11.html
Another very famous reflex is the diving reflex, which is common in all mammals: Diving reflex - Wikipedia
Generally speaking, the body of all mammals is genetically programmed for free diving. Scuba diving is something "against nature", our body REFUSES to breath underwater. So these reflexes, which are a natural way of avoiding drowning and allowing to dive quite deep on your breath, can become dangerous for a scuba diver.
During training, the instructor should try to trigger these reflexes, and teach the student to counterfeit them.
A number of training exercises have been developed exactly for teaching how to control the soft palate, the glottis and your lungs. At the time, breathing control was a severe prerequisite for scuba diving, as most of the training was done with a pure-oxygen re-breather, the ARO, which REQUIRES a complete breathing control, and to be able to perform both an inspiratory pause (long) and an expiratory pause (short)
I was introduced to these concepts during my instructor course, hold by Duilio Marcante at Nervi, Genoa, in September 1978. So it is all known since decades, and I find strange that these concepts are not known to all divers.
But I have seen in fast OW courses the instructors simply telling the students to "breath normally", which of course is exactly the opposite as training them to get a good control on their respiratory system.
I do not want to start again here the discussion about breathing "properly" or "normally", indeed...
We had this discussion already several times regarding reducing the SAC, reducing CO2 retention, or avoiding the pause for the risk of lung over-distention if surfacing without expiring...

Understood (well, basically...). Guess what I was asking is what % of dive students have trouble breathing underwater without a mask on? I had no problem at all and noticed that most of the students I observed in my 4 years had no problem doing this drill. Maybe that's why instructors just tell them to "breathe normally" and for most that works? That also may be a reason these concepts are not known to all divers? I didn't know of them until reading your posts.
I have read about and heard instructors describing to students some of the ways they can overcome this difficulty (you have explained these also). But I can't recall actually hearing the concepts themselves discussed until now.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Understood (well, basically...). Guess what I was asking is what % of dive students have trouble breathing underwater without a mask on?

I wrote the percentages in my first message: looking at children aged 6 to 10 (the ones to which I was teaching finned swimming) the percentage is around 1 over 4, or 25% if you prefer. Perhaps even 1 over 3, or 33%.
Going to adults at scuba diving courses, this drops around 1 over 10 (or 10%).
But consider that not all of them suffer of the presence of the glottis reflex. A number of them suffer of LACKING of another reflex, the soft palate reflex. This reflex closes the valve between mouth and nose, called the soft palate. If this valve remains open, when you inhale without a mask you inspire water through the nose and start coughing.
You see this easily, as those people loose air from nose when exhaling.
For being able to breath without mask, you must close one valve (the soft palate) and keep open the other (the glottis). If one of the two operations is wrong, you cannot breath.
On the other hand, if the soft palate reflex still kicks in when you wear a mask, you have another problem: you cannot equalize the mask, and you get that nasty suction-cup effect making your eyes to became fool of blood when surfacing...
So definitely a scuba diver should need to master proper voluntary control of the valves in their airways. I did never appreciate the "modern" PADI approach of teaching the students to dive fully equipped, and to rely on their equipment for being able to "breath normally".
I still think that preparing a safe scuba diver should start with exercises done without any equipment, then you add just the fins and teach them how to use them properly, then you add the snorkel, then the mask, and you train for free diving to at least 15 meters. Then you add one by one all the remaining parts. The last one being the BCD: I am still convinced that a novice should practice a number of dives, say 10-20, without BCD, before being introduced to using it properly.

 

[stepfen]

Today I had the chance to dive again and tried to breath with eyes open without mask.
As I was pretty sure was the case in the past, I could swim around, breath etc with naked open eyes without any trouble for quite long.

To be honest my breathing was not 100% comfortable but very manageable. I think the small discomfort was because I was thinking about or expecting to have the breathing problems I had last week. Now that I know about this I will keep practicing and it is great I am now more aware of the background.

Last week, it seems that somehow my baby reflex woke up, but now it is mostly back to sleep.

Thanks

 

[lowviz]

Today I had the chance to dive again and tried to breath with eyes open without mask. ...//... To be honest my breathing was not 100% comfortable but very manageable. I think the small discomfort was because I was thinking about or expecting to have the breathing problems I had last week.

A suggestion: Try diving with your mask half-full of water. It acclimates you to both the water you are diving in and the 'on-again-off-again' feeling of water in your nose.

Always love to help a fellow solo diver...

 

[EFX]

.... you cannot equalize the mask, and you get that nasty suction-cup effect making your eyes to became fool of blood when surfacing...

That happens in other ways to, when divers dive beyond their level of training. See bolded and underlined in quote above.