Diamond International got knocked off

[Tigerman]

Well, Ive been sleep deprived and armed for more than 48hrs at a time. I can tell you for sure that hamburger I saw crossing the road ain't going anywhere fast :cool2:

 

[Mike]

AK-47 totting thieves on Cozumel????. Damn, now that kind of sucks, there goes the neighborhood!

If that's really what they were, that is some serious fire power put into the hands of what sounds like just some paid off dumb ass flunkies. I hope they were actually un-loaded. One bad moment away from some real carnage when you put together a clueless person and a fully automatic weapon.

Last but not least : where do you find the money to arm and train the police ? Raise taxes ?

Better line of questions is - it's 2011, it's Mexico and your country is so f**ked you can't afford to arm police? Better to focus on un-f**k-a-fying your country, you've got some serious problems if you can't afford a gun for your cops.

 

[cvchief]

If we're gonna play back seat quaterbacking or couch driving or whatever, let's look at some issues.

Cops are among the poorest category of workers in Mexico (hence the high rate of corruption and the abuse of civilians via the unfamous "mordida"). Although many enter the profession with ideals and the genuine desire to protect civilians and serve a greater good, the fact is that some cops are corrupt and working with the bad guys. Obviously, the brighter ones sooner or later leave the municipal police to get a decent salary they can actually live on. So that leaves us with many uneducated, not so smart and/or not law-abiding people…
Question : can and should everyone be trained when it comes to firearms ?

Answer: Well if they are paying these guys to take a bullet, they should be able to send some back. If they can't be taught to shoot, I bet their mechanics and techniques of arrest are horrid too. (Think repeated clubbing to the head.) There are many people I know who are perfectly able to safely carry a firearm and most likely properly defend themselves who would fail miserably as policemen. My bet is they can train 'em.

In Cancun and Cozumel, the policias municipales work 24 hour shifts (with a 4 hour break for lunch, not much time for a siesta as that 4 hour break includes commuting from one assignement to the next and many can't afford personal transportation so don't have time to go home, cook, eat, nap and get back on the job). If there's a special event, such as the gobernador or another official visiting the island, then they all have to be working, so the 24 hr shift can extend to 48 or more.
Question : do you really want to put lethal weapons in the hands of people who haven't slept for 24 hours or more ?

Answer: Do I really want someone who hasn't slept in 24 hour or more to be deciding if I need a truncheon up side the head or not. I would think they would be way more likely to kick the crap outta you because they are frustrated and tired than shoot you.

Last but not least : where do you find the money to arm and train the police ? Raise taxes ?

Answer: Well that is always the problem. Would it be better to have fewer cops who could defend themselves and others? If you family was buying cars would you buy two that don't run or settle for one that does if that's all you can afford?

And I was quoting from Por Esto quoting Luis Fernando Marrufo Martin, Councillor President of the Commission on Public Security and Transit. DI pays the city a fee of 30,000 peso a month and they give the cop 1000. If I read it right, it says they may all be trained but they don't have enough guns?

Reminds me of eating up on the hill in Antigua. One cop there sporting an old 686 I think. Shift change the other guy showed up and they handed off the gun.

 

[cvchief]

AK-47 totting thieves on Cozumel????. Damn, now that kind of sucks, there goes the neighborhood!

If that's really what they were, that is some serious fire power put into the hands of what sounds like just some paid off dumb ass flunkies. I hope they were actually un-loaded. One bad moment away from some real carnage when you put together a clueless person and a fully automatic weapon.



Better line of questions is - it's 2011, it's Mexico and your country is so f**ked you can't afford to arm police? Better to focus on un-f**k-a-fying your country, you've got some serious problems if you can't afford a gun for your cops.

Seriously, a flunky with an ak or an automatic is the best to have shooting at you. First shot maybe at ground level and the rest in the air. The guy with the revolver might actually AIM. I agree with you on arming them, but I have been reading about all the problems they have keeping the fleet on the road, so as always the might peso.

 

[annlaur]

Better line of questions is - it's 2011, it's Mexico and your country is so f**ked you can't afford to arm police? Better to focus on un-f**k-a-fying your country, you've got some serious problems if you can't afford a gun for your cops.

First of all, I'm not Mexican (except in my heart).

Secondly, noone said no Mexican cops have guns. We're talking about the policia municipal, which is only one of many police corporations. Policia municipal only deals with minor infractions, and not all cities have one. Other agencies include the federal police and the state police, which are divided in separate branches, preventiva and judiciale, and present all over the country, Cozumel included. So of course there are armed cops on Cozumel, the question raised here is about giving weapons to all municipal cops whose job is to handle minor civil disturbances and traffic infractions.

Thirdly, arming MUNICIPAL forces is not just a matter of being able to afford it. It's also a matter of choice. For example, in France, it is up to the mayor to decide if their police force can carry up to grade 4 weapons (such as special 38 guns). Over 60% of French municipal cops do NOT carry firearms. 25% do NOT carry any type of weapon (stick, teargas) at all. Keep in mind that municipal cops deal with minor infractions and traffic. If they see a crime, they are supposed to report it to the adequate authorities (federal cops), they are not expected to deal with it.

I understand gun carrying is a very sensitive issue for citizens of the USA, but many countries in the world do not have the same culture. To me, it seems obvious that the more widespread weapons are in the general population, the more important it is for police forces at all levels to be adequately trained and armed. And I believe the opposite is true. If only a few bad guys have access to weaponry, you don't need that many armed cops to combat them.

Let's also not forget that training and arming people doesn't always turn out for the greater good (Ousama Ben Laden and the Zetas come to mind, but I'm sure we can come up with lots of other examples).

 

[annlaur]

Answer: Well if they are paying these guys to take a bullet, they should be able to send some back. If they can't be taught to shoot, I bet their mechanics and techniques of arrest are horrid too. (Think repeated clubbing to the head.) There are many people I know who are perfectly able to safely carry a firearm and most likely properly defend themselves who would fail miserably as policemen. My bet is they can train 'em.

I think I'll take the repeated beating over the shooting any day. I've seen that happen in real life, Mexican cops beating someone I knew (not in Cozumel and over 10 years ago), and yes it was scary and horrible. But I am glad these guys didn't have weapons, because in the state they were in (I'm guessing coke and alcohol), I'm pretty sure they would have fired them.

Answer: Do I really want someone who hasn't slept in 24 hour or more to be deciding if I need a truncheon up side the head or not. I would think they would be way more likely to kick the crap outta you because they are frustrated and tired than shoot you.

Well, would carrying a gun make them less likely to kick the crap outta me because they are frustrated and tired ? I don't see why it would. Unless carrying a gun makes you less cranky and sleep-deprived but I haven't read any scientific study on the subject
Would they be more likely to shoot me ? Definitely yes (they can't shoot me if they don't have firearms, now can they ?)

Answer: Well that is always the problem. Would it be better to have fewer cops who could defend themselves and others? If you family was buying cars would you buy two that don't run or settle for one that does if that's all you can afford?

So what you're basically saying is they should do cuts in the police force ?

And I was quoting from Por Esto quoting Luis Fernando Marrufo Martin, Councillor President of the Commission on Public Security and Transit. DI pays the city a fee of 30,000 peso a month and they give the cop 1000. If I read it right, it says they may all be trained but they don't have enough guns?

Haven't read that story. 1000 pesos a month ? Hope it's on top of their wages.

 

[cruiser]

...to arm all policias in light of one isolated incident is overreacting....

What is this incident isolated from?

 

[Mike]

First of all, I'm not Mexican (except in my heart).

Who accused you of being?

.

And I believe the opposite is true. If only a few bad guys have access to weaponry, you don't need that many armed cops to combat them.

Mexico has got some of the strictest most severe gun and ammo laws on the planet.

How'd that work for Diamond International?

Those criminals had squirt guns? Oops, nope AK-47s in a country that will put you behind bars for owning a bullet, yet things are so f'd up that the army has to walk around with machine guns in tourist areas.

Don't want to blow your mind, but whatever you do, don't pick up a newspaper and read anything about the 20,000 dead from the drug cartels in Mexico and their machine gunning, out gunning the cops membership.

I guess you don't remember the Hollywood shoot out with the nut jobs with machine guns and armor piercing bullets and cops trying to combat them with 6 shot revolvers? How'd that one work out and what's in cops trunks now?

Nothing beats superior fire power.

 

[annlaur]

I meant isolated in time, in the sense that it's a one of a kind occurrence on the island. But English not being my native language, might have misused the word.

 

[Mike]

Unless you have magic powers to guarantee it from ever happening again, the correct description is "First occurrence on the island"

the bar has officially been raised