Determining the future of DIR

[amascuba]

DIR will most likely always have ties with WKPP and specifically George Irvine. To me, it has completely outgrown all of that and is more about a philosophy of team work, standard gear configurations, and standard procedures of how a team should operate. Fundamentally it revolves around the team and working together to achieve a common goal. Different teams may have different procedures, gear, gases, etc, but if they are all on the same page and work together efficiently, then that's what DIR is at the heart.

If I showed up in Florida to dive with the folks whom I had a disagreement with over stage markings, I would expect to have my stages marked as well as communicate any other differences to work together efficiently as a team. I would suspect that it would be easily done as the training is similar and that the minor differences would be worked out without much fuss.

I do, however, believe that CCR's configured as what UTD has are just as "DIR" as the RB80's. At the meat and guts of it, they are almost the same, with the exception of an added O2 bottle. Most of the procedures for dealing with failures would be the same though, so I don't completely understand what the big deal is about. The UTD CCR probably leaves it's operator slightly more task loaded, but after several dives with George, I've seen that it can be done efficiently.

 

[PfcAJ]

I can't disagree more about the CCR thing.

The entire point of the rb80 is that it doesn't have the complexity that a CCR has. Electronics, oxygen injection, and the need to carry an o2 bottle, turned on, up front, are all MAJOR issues. With the rb80, there's none of that. Given that the limits of the rb80 haven't been reached (and its admirable safety record), I'm hard pressed to see a need for CCR. If you want to dive a CCR, that's cool. But lets call a spade a spade.

If you start taking out main pillars of the system, you get into trouble. Might not be evident on smaller dives, but the second you start ramping up to deeper, longer, more equipment intensive, dives with longer exposures, more risk, and more variables, the higher the need to use simple, proven techniques.

You make a point that if you show up with some equipment variation, that a simple conversation should work out the issue. Sure, that's reasonable. But where does it stop? If equipment isn't an issue, is communication? How about deco strategy? How about separation protocols? Mixed teams? Navigation? Towing procedures? Gas management? Where do we draw the line? If there isn't one, then we're quickly back to a star wars bar scene from the 90s.

If someone wants to dive that way, cool. But when I discuss DIR, I'd like to be on the same page as the person I'm taking to. I don't want to rehash all the above just so we're on common ground.

 

[rjack321]

You make a point that if you show up with some equipment variation, that a simple conversation should work out the issue. Sure, that's reasonable. But where does it stop? If equipment isn't an issue, is communication? How about deco strategy? How about separation protocols? Mixed teams? Navigation? Towing procedures? Gas management? Where do we draw the line? If there isn't one, then we're quickly back to a star wars bar scene from the 90s.

Ditto, its damn hard to find people who "think" alike. When the crap hits the fan its way more complicated than going over a few hand signals.

Imagine...
3 divers
Low vis (6ft)
Silty awful bottom
Lake, no walls/boundaries
Scooter sucks up line (being laid)
30min tow home

1 tows 2, but where does diver 3 go?

Some might say Diver 2 is the "injured" one and goes in the middle with everyone reorganizing into a line. Yet that leaves #1 dimly navigating everyone home alone with limited chance to get corrected by buddies. IMHO best place for #3 is side-by-side with #2 with their light alternating between illuminating/checking the line and where #1 can see it. #3 is way faster than the #1+2 tow so they can surge ahead or drop back slightly as conditions change.

I don't think mixed OC/RB teams make any sense in "DIR" ever. If 1 person can do the dive on OC everyone can. If you need another tool, fine. But don't call a mixed team "DIR" diving.

 

[Rainer]

Totally agree, Richard.

 

[LiteHedded]

double post

 

[LiteHedded]

Totally agree, Richard.

me too.
mixed teams are acceptable in certain situations, i've done it. but I dont know how dir it is

 

[Rainer]

I've done several mixed team dives (recreational and technical). I no longer will. I'm not a CCR diver. I just wouldn't be as effective a teammate in an emergency in a mixed team. For me, that's not acceptable. If the dive can easily be done on OC, then no need to bring the CCR. The fact the local UTD CCR-OC mixed teams aren't even bringing the same deco gases for ~T1 dives is an even bigger deal breaker.

 

[LiteHedded]

CCR is unacceptable for me as well. I'm talking rb80 here. again this is just me and just in certain situations

 

[amascuba]

I can't disagree more about the CCR thing.

The entire point of the rb80 is that it doesn't have the complexity that a CCR has. Electronics, oxygen injection, and the need to carry an o2 bottle, turned on, up front, are all MAJOR issues. With the rb80, there's none of that. Given that the limits of the rb80 haven't been reached (and its admirable safety record), I'm hard pressed to see a need for CCR. If you want to dive a CCR, that's cool. But lets call a spade a spade.

If you start taking out main pillars of the system, you get into trouble. Might not be evident on smaller dives, but the second you start ramping up to deeper, longer, more equipment intensive, dives with longer exposures, more risk, and more variables, the higher the need to use simple, proven techniques.

You make a point that if you show up with some equipment variation, that a simple conversation should work out the issue. Sure, that's reasonable. But where does it stop? If equipment isn't an issue, is communication? How about deco strategy? How about separation protocols? Mixed teams? Navigation? Towing procedures? Gas management? Where do we draw the line? If there isn't one, then we're quickly back to a star wars bar scene from the 90s.

If someone wants to dive that way, cool. But when I discuss DIR, I'd like to be on the same page as the person I'm taking to. I don't want to rehash all the above just so we're on common ground.

The only electronics are the PPO2 monitors (Handset fails, who cares - It's typically not checked underwater anyways, so it most likely won't be noticed underwater. If the HUD fails, you go OC and make your ascent), There is an O2 and diluent addition block with QC6 connectors to jack in O2 or diluent. It lacks a switch block to jack in external stages, that is done via the diluent addition block. The stages and deco bottles also have external second stages, so that all gas is usable via OC. The added task loading comes in the form of monitoring your PPO2 (via the HUB, which can be seen by your team mates if you can see your CCR buddies mask). Since the system is completely manual, it takes practice to become proficient at, but I've seen it done successfully with some fairly task loaded dives (survey dives). It boils down to adding a component to your situational awareness. The PPO2 handsets are clipped off and other than checking them on the surface, I've never seen George look at them underwater.

I'd like your input on why you feel that having O2, turned on, and up front are major issues. Is this from a cave diving point of view of not taking a bottle deeper than it's mod? For this application (CCR), I don't treat it different than any other bottle clipped to the side. If for some reason the O2 addition block failed, all you do is turn the bottle off and/or unplug the QC6, and perhaps go on OC (SCR is an option - but usually just go OC and thumb comes out). As a team mate, I would watch my buddy and check things only when he wanted me to (Think post or stage failures). If it's fixable, it's fixable. If not, then I give the "it's ****ed" signal, we situate as needed and make our ascent. Things like dealing with an OOG diver would be handled just like an RB80 diver.

I'm not knocking the RB80 or it's success rates. I can only think of a single incident relating to the WKPP and the RB80 and their training probably saved that persons life. I would argue that the RB80 is reaching it's limits within the WKPP. - The reason that I say that is because of a dive report by Casey McKinley where he stated that they were using new canisters that were longer in length, so that they could get more scrubber material in them, so that they could get slightly longer BT durations out of them. I would agree that the UTD configuration has a couple added failure points over an RB80, but the same is also said about an RB80 comparison to OC. Based upon what I've seen (granted I'm not a RB diver), those failure points have been dramatically overblown on the various forums.

I'm in total agreement that having those differences on larger dives wouldn't be pretty, but honestly, are you going to jump in the water to do those types of dives with somebody that you don't know or haven't even been in the water with? I don't care if all the divers are GUE trained, there will be differences in the training from various instructors and even experience levels. I do how ever feel that those differences can be overcome with getting to know your team mates and doing a few shake down dives with them. A UTD Tech 2 diver is going to have a similar training experience from a GUE Tech 1 diver. I'd expect teams with those training experiences to be able to mesh pretty well. There will be obvious differences, but something that could be worked out pretty easily. At this point, that's has more to do with AG's history with GUE and how they relate to UTD. I expect, that eventually, there will be a pretty large divergence as the two organizations evolve to meet their future goals and needs.

 

[amascuba]

I've done several mixed team dives (recreational and technical). I no longer will. I'm not a CCR diver. I just wouldn't be as effective a teammate in an emergency in a mixed team. For me, that's not acceptable. If the dive can easily be done on OC, then no need to bring the CCR. The fact the local UTD CCR-OC mixed teams aren't even bringing the same deco gases for ~T1 dives is an even bigger deal breaker.

I assume that you're referencing the 70' bottle? I know that my UTD CCR team mate does, infact, carry the same gases as the rest of the team. He may not use them, but he does carry them.