Design your own OW class!

[Scuba]

dkigreg,

From my personal experience when you have an instructor that 'instructs' in the OW dives anywhere from 100 % to 0 % of the OW dive time, with the avg. time spent on instruction being roughly around 25 %. Surely you don't think this type of service deserves full time pay.

In my case the instructor spent a lot of time leading tours out in front ( which at the time I loved but in retrospect it was a big waste of time ), while his assistant trails the pack making sure everyone follows. He can't watch his trainees from the front therefore is unable to offer any advise or tips. Or he is juggling different classes and students at once shorting both of valuable instruction time.

Vacation divers are one segment of the diving population. You either cater to their needs or you don't. Regular divers, on the other hand, as I think is evident from the posts on this forum show an interest in better training. The increase in DIR shows some are willing to pay more for training and spend additional money on different gear than what many already have. In my opinion there is a largely unfilled gap between vacation dive training and regimented Tech, DIR, training.

If most agree that more classes ( stretched out over time, not necessarily longer, could be shorter ) would be helpfull to learning, along with better training in fundamentals; why is no-one offering them? If you assume everyone is a vacation diver, and expect them to behave as such, most will. But there is an increasing number asking for other options.

Peter

 

[Diversauras]

Peter,

Oh where to begin. I am taking a stab at what you may be meaning in your reply, and I am going to limit myself to your first paragraph, so here goes.

I don’t know what your experience is with OW instructors, but it doesn’t sound as though you were left satisfied with the performance demonstrated. I can’t fix that, sorry.

I am curious though what you thing pay is, let alone full pay. I know this has been done in another thread but I will do it again anyway. A class of 8 or 10 OW students requires two weeks and two weekends in order to get completed (the way I teach, 6 dives min). No matter what the shop charges I make 25 per student and most classes were not full. I therefore put in 10 evenings at 4 hours each plus three 6 hour dive days. You are correct in that every one of the 24 hours spent near the ocean was not actively teaching, but just out of curiosity who do you suppose was responsible for the student safety from the instant they stepped out of the car until they drove off?

Never mind, I just showed you where I put in 64 hours for $250. Do the math, that is $3.91 per hour. I paid for my own gas to and from the shop, the pool and the dive site. Did I mention that I pay almost $600 for insurance each year that the shop doesn’t pay for? How about $200 worth of dues? Spread that $800 across 10 classes, $80 per class, that drops the hourly rate to $2.66 Sure I buy my gear at less than MSRP but I still spend $ 800 to $1000 on gear each year, replacing worn, trading up, etc. and of course trying to give the students examples to follow.

Try it this way, I work a full time job outside the dive shop so I can afford to be an instructor. For the shop I teach 10 classes or 640 hours over 20 weeks of the year, after expenses the profit (assuming all classes are full) is around $700 or about $35 per week for all 20 weeks. That wouldn't even by me gas for a weekend of diving, and you want to pay me less for the OW part?

It is really hard to impart knowledge and try to share experience with OW divers like you, to make your entry into the sport safer and easier, when you obviously already know more than I do.

 

[jbd]

I would like more class time more pool time and more dives for certification. If this were to happen, it would obviously cost more money as well.

In my mind 4 classroom/pool sessions followed by 4 OW dives that are focus only on the how to survive diving's little mishaps is simply not enough to produce reasonably safe divers.

As dkigreg points out, the instructors bear expenses related to the safety of the students and the divers he/she trains.

If diving as an activity is so safe that very little training is needed then maybe the insurance rates should be reduced or dropped altogether. The best way, IMHO, for an instructor to reduce theri exposure to liability is to provide a solid, thorough training program to those he or she teaches.

It amazes me that people are willing to spend thousands of dollars on equipment in the name of safety but they balk at paying a respectable amount for the greatest safety feature there is in scuba---quality training.

Stepping of the soapbox now.

 

[Scuba]

dkigreg,

I'm going to ignore your last paragraph. I won't go there. You obviously have much more diving knowledge and probably diving business knowledge than I, since I am a newbie at this. I can only speak from personal experience and business knowledge in another field.

Anyways, you are obviously underpaid, so your work is obviously a labor of love contributing to the sport you love. I can not ask anyone to do this, nor do I expect this sacrifice from anyone.

In the case of my instructors they got to keep the whole class fee, which although better than your pay it still does'nt cut it as a decent wage for full time work for most, considering the small classes, etc.

It seems to me, from my limited, newly ackwired knowledge of this business, that it is evolving from a small, emerging enterprise, into a maturing business model. Right now, the LDS business appears to be one of small, localized, low competition business mode. One where the consumer has very limited choices and thus the LDS is able to dictate the overall marketing strategy as they best see fit. They use certain elements to subsidise the others in order to attract and keep customers. This create a temporary anomaly in terms of the price necessary for each element to stand on its own.

The internet is now ending the use of gear sales to subsidize others. There are already large scale training organizations. Why the price of training has not been adjusted accordingly is I suspect due to the fact that the training organizations and the LDS have been linked together. An apparently natural fit, but now without the gear subsidy this model becomes unsustainable.

I hope this will lead to true professional instructors being able to make a living at it. This would be a win situation for all except the outdated LDS business model pratictioner.

Peter

 

[Diversauras]

Unique to the US and Americans... I can legally teach without insurance in Europe as long as I don't teach Americans. The same is probably true throughout the world but I don't know that for sure. Anyway, IMO insurance is a result of lawyers, not the otherway round.

There is no way to cut exposure to risk and instructors have been sued by the estates of, or on behalf of the bereaved estates of students taught a decade before, but only in the US...

 

[sheck33]

dkigreg once bubbled...
Unique to the US and Americans... I can legally teach without insurance in Europe as long as I don't teach Americans. The same is probably true throughout the world but I don't know that for sure. Anyway, IMO insurance is a result of lawyers, not the otherway round.

There is no way to cut exposure to risk and instructors have been sued by the estates of, or on behalf of the bereaved estates of students taught a decade before, but only in the US...

or at least the majority should learn to take responsibility for their own actions and get rid of this idiotic 'sue anybody for anything' deal. Gee, if i order hot coffee and i spill it on myself i am going to sue the store that sold the HOT coffee that I ordered to begin with.....sorry it's just ridiculous.

I dont know anymore if i ever want to teach, my money is better spent on gear than wasted on liability insurance.....

ok, i have had my rant....

 

[Diversauras]

I honestly don't think it is the people that won't take the responsibility for their actions, I think it is the sue everybody lawyer community stirring the pot and drumming up business. In some countries Lawyers are not allowed to advertise other that the yellow pages and the shingle on the front door.

 

[diveski01]

I agree with adding the use of video analysis and more time spent on bouyancy and trim. Maybe venture so far as to teach them to keep their hands and fins off the coral!

I usually dive with buddies who are DM's after they've been helping with certification check-out dives and I get to watch their interactions with students. What I've seen that would help turn out better newbies:

1) Have at least one DM per buddy pair during pool sessions and check-out dives. This provides a built-in mentoring system. Students get to see good bouyancy and trim several times before they are certified so they have a model to immulate. I've heard students ask the DM's "How to you do X so well and what do I need to do to get better at X?" The opportunities for immediate and positive feedback are limitless.

2) Offer "follow-up" dives with Instructors &/or DM's after certification dives to build upon the basic skills. Students can get tunnel-vision during check-out dives and might miss the big picture of putting it all together under more relaxing situation. I recently heard a LDS instructor invite his newly certified divers to come out to the quarry any time and dive with him &/or DM's. He also went further to be specific about inviting them out for the following weekend. I thought that was really cool - never got that from my OW instructor. Just having the offer might just turn a potential assembly-line newbie into a diver that cares about their skills and comfort level. It's also a good segue for promoting AOW and specialty courses.

 

[chepar]

diveski01 once bubbled...
I recently heard a LDS instructor invite his newly certified divers to come out to the quarry any time and dive with him &/or DM's. He also went further to be specific about inviting them out for the following weekend. I thought that was really cool - never got that from my OW instructor. Just having the offer might just turn a potential assembly-line newbie into a diver that cares about their skills and comfort level. It's also a good segue for promoting AOW and specialty courses.

While not really part of a course, this is also something I feel would promote better divers. While I feel that almost all instructors and DMs would welcome a new diver to go out with them, the effort in making a specific invitation instead of assuming that the newbie will stop by the shop and inquire if they were interested would help in making the "initial contact" with those that are maybe a little more shy about asking to be included.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think some good stuff has been offered up. However, I thought there would be more of a response from some of the anti agency folks. The discussion has kind of turned to liability and money.

Maybe the vast majority are satisfied with the training they receive. Out at gilboa last weekend I was good and rank over the blown out vis, the number of tanks we saw fall out of bc straps and the almost universal methode of toting alternate and gages (flying in the breeze like a flag) but they all seemed to have fun. They seemed to be working too hard but even the ones who survived rapid ascents to their belly buttons seemed to be in good humor.

A former student of mine approached several divers, underwater, and picked up their dangling alternates and handed it back too them. All but one had no clue why he did that.