Depth

[DCBC]

I am a rookie diver, an older man with plenty of flab. On a recent dive in the Philippines, the Divemaster got carried away and took me down to a depth of 52M. Although it was an exhilarating experience I believe an unnecessarily dangerous one. He was later disciplined for it. My question is should we have decompressed as we ascended? We had the 3 min at 15' but is that sufficient? Was I in danger?

First I'd like to thank you for having the stones to post this. I also think that it's fair to say that everyone replying to this post has made (in my case at least) a number of dumb mistakes. This was one of yours.

As a certified diver, you're expected to be able to set your own safety parameters and plan your own dive profile. Depending upon anyone to do this for you is not an excuse to go beyond your own personal capabilities (the parameters of which are dictated by your training, experience and personal judgment).

To answer your question, yes you were in danger: danger of running out of gas, danger of debilitating narcosis and danger of DCS. As many have already discussed this, the only thing I'd like to add is that no one needs a computer to do a dive like this.

It's not that I'm against technology (I often dive with one), but don't exclusively depend upon it. People have been doing deep decompression dives for years by using tables. Currently, most saturation diving facilities use tables exclusively. No doubt, that a computer is much easier for the recreational diver to use, but I don't believe its use is mandatory for a properly trained diver.

 

[openmindOW]

This particular dive was only my 13th dive. I was doing the PADI Deep Dive program.

Thank you for your post, Finbob.

I congratulate you for getting additional training; that shows you responsible and that you want to improve your skills. That's great.

I do have some questions.

Was the dive in question a "Training Dive"? That is, was the dive part of your Deep Dive Program?

If so, where was the Instructor?

It sounds like he was a PADI guy. Do you know if he is a pro with any other agency(ies) as well?

Was the Divemaster an Instructor? Was the DM your Instructor?

Does the Shop in the Phillippines ahve your e-mail address?

Have you been contacted by PADI? You should have been. If PADI has not contacted you, then I have my doubts as to whether or not discipline occurred. At least with PADI Americas, PADI may try to contact the student in question in order to gather facts.

Would you mind PM'ing me with the name of the Dive Operator?

 

[openmindOW]

First I'd like to thank you for having the stones to post this. I also think that it's fair to say that everyone replying to this post has made (in my case at least) a number of dumb mistakes.

Thank you, DCBC. The intelligence of your posts is refreshing on this Board.

 

[openmindOW]

If you had confided in me that you were nervous about a 60 ft open water drop the course would have been over then and there. YOu would have gotten a refund and told to go get 40 or 50 more dives with some experienced divers and work your way to 100 over those.

Amen. That's the way it should be.

This guy needs to be reported for this violation and soon before he grabs someones tank and leads them to their death!

I agree.

 

[Hammerhead]

The tables we had in the early 80's (IIRC) gave an NDL of 5 min at 50m

Think you're right - when I first started diving ('95), my dive watch had the US Navy ND Tables printed on the strap. Pretty sure that had 50m / 5mins as the maximum depth / time ratio.

 

[Hammerhead]

I am a rookie diver, an older man with plenty of flab. On a recent dive in the Philippines, the Divemaster got carried away and took me down to a depth of 52M. Although it was an exhilarating experience I believe an unnecessarily dangerous one. He was later disciplined for it. My question is should we have decompressed as we ascended? We had the 3 min at 15' but is that sufficient? Was I in danger?

Finbob, sorry but just noticed that this happened in the Philippines. I'm a regular visitor and have logged over a thousand dives there. Well, I would have if I'd actually logged them, but that's another story.

Anyway, I've done a fair bit of travelling round the place and there's a fair chance I'd know the outfit or even the DM / Instructor. Any chance you could send me a Private Message with some details?

I'm not about to start a campaign here, but it would be nice to know if there's someone to avoid...

 

[finbob]

Gentlemen, thank you for your comments.

Although I am very reluctant to do so, I will ensure that an incident report is sent to Jimmy Christrup - PADI's representative in the Philippines. My desire is that the particular dive shop tighten up on safety issues and ensure the instructor is suitably qualified in the future.

However, I do not want to disclose publicly the particular dive shop or divemaster that was involved. Rather let PADI handle it - I'm sure you will understand.

Sincerely, finbob

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Gentlemen, thank you for your comments.

Although I am very reluctant to do so, I will ensure that an incident report is sent to Jimmy Christrup - PADI's representative in the Philippines. My desire is that the particular dive shop tighten up on safety issues and ensure the instructor is suitably qualified in the future.

However, I do not want to disclose publicly the particular dive shop or divemaster that was involved. Rather let PADI handle it - I'm sure you will understand.

finbob,

By all means, proceed as you see best.

My observation, however, would be that your inquiry here on SB appeared to be focused on the development of protocols for your own safety and decision-making.

While your adventure may have been alarming in retrospect, you described it as "exhilarating" at the time. You also noted that your escort to the deeps was disciplined.

My point is that you descended with the other diver, and have learned an interesting lesson. Unless you feel that additional punitive actions would be somehow constructive, you may wish to simply focus on what you yourself can take from this episode, and how you wish to plan your dives and u/w communications in the future.

If you feel punitive actions are warranted, so be it. But the lesson-learned here, I submit, is personal in nature and need go no further to be both efficient and effective.

Your mileage may vary,

Doc

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Thank you gentlemen.

Thank you for your advice & rebuke which I have taken to heart.

Perhaps I should explain...

I have completed the PADI 'Open Water' & 'Advanced' with my first eight dives. Prior to this event, I have been at 97'. This particular dive was only my 13th dive. I was doing the PADI Deep Dive program.

The drop from the boat was in open water down to 60'. Then the wall came into sight.
I explained to the Divemaster that I was very nervous with the open water drop so he took control. Literally holding onto my tank as we went down. When we arrived at the wall he continued to hold onto my tank. I felt uncomfortable with this amount of control, yet comforted also. Trusting and resting in his experience and wisdom. We were moving down the wall and then settled for a moment on a ledge. At this point I looked at my depth gauge. It read 42M. I could not believe it. Since I am not use to meters I began the mental process of converting this into feet but found it a little challenging. Once again a hand came on my tank and we went down again. At this point I was overwhelmed with the grandeur of it all. Perhaps I was experiencing a little narcosis, I don't know - probably. He then took me up and we leveled off for a while. He was looking for sharks or a turtle - I said I would buy him a pizza if I saw one! Then we headed to the surface for a 3 min safety stop.

What have I learned from this?

1. Take control yourself & don't trust anyone, even a Divemaster!
2. Never again dive without a computer (He nor I had one)

If I was fully cognizant, I would not have allowed the dive to go below 130'. I am thankful that nothing went wrong. The dive was reckless and placed us both in unnecessary danger.

Every blessing.

Ahh. So you went with no other dives but your training dives? It happens a lot. They push you take course right after course. I think you need some dive experience before doing deep. You may want to review your dive procedures and just dive within your new diver limits. This will help you. Don't go doing 50 meter dives with no "grown up" dives under your belt. It is easy to trust those of us who are professionals, but don't trust us all blindly. This will definitely get you in trouble. I am glad you are ok.

The instructor was the DM

Nope. Not kosher. A DM cannot instruct ANY classes. Not full courses, nor specialty courses. You should be contacting more than local PADI, but the international base too.

Reread his description they stopped at 42 then went down again. And with the instructors hand on his tank yet. Jesus H.! What kind of course was this and who was the instructor. If he had his hand on your tank because it was needed then you were in no way ready for this. All they did was see you coming and take your money. If you had confided in me that you were nervous about a 60 ft open water drop the course would have been over then and there. YOu would have gotten a refund and told to go get 40 or 50 more dives with some experienced divers and work your way to 100 over those. Then MAYBE I'd take you to 130 after an assessment of your skills. THis kind of crap gets divers killed. See the Grand Cayman thread where a DM led a group of divers that included two OW divers on their 7th dive and a 17 yr old kid who had not been in the water in over year on a PLANNED 100 foot wall dive. Well one of the OW divers hit 342ft before he bounced and did a 2 minute ascent from 302 to the surface. Yes he was dead. Before he even knew it. And yet the DM said he did this all the time. As I'm guessing this so called professional does as well. This guy needs to be reported for this violation and soon before he grabs someones tank and leads them to their death! Even 140 is beyond standards and demonstrates poor judgment and reckless behavior.

Did you read where it wasn't even an instructor, but a DM? This is pathetic.

On returning to the shop, I believe one of the other dive instructors reported the incident to PADI who are now looking into it. The diver has been disciplined. Apparently this was not the first incident with him. I chose the shop based upon a PADI 5* rating. Anyway, it has taught me to be more cautious & take responsibility.

You need to file your own complaint. Do not allow someone else to file this for you. He has been yelled at, not disciplined. This needs to go to the cert agency.

And FYI, a PADI 5* means that they only instruct PADI and have paid padi for the 5* designation. Doesn't really mean anything. It is good marketting... PADI is very good at that.

 

[Crush]

Although I am very reluctant to do so, I will ensure that an incident report is sent to Jimmy Christrup - PADI's representative in the Philippines.

finbob, you should not feel reluctant. Your guilty conscience can be assuaged if you remove all condemnation from your letter to PADI. Simply give them the facts, without judgment, and ask if this was within PADI standards. Surely this is a reasonable request.

Also, finbob, I have seen a great deal of deception in the world which can only be described as pure art. You may have seen your DM get chewed out. You may have someone spit upon him and assure you that corrective actions will be taken. You may have seen someone talking on the phone, reporting the DMs actions to the "PADI" person on the other end of the line. However, you don't know if any of this has really be relayed to PADI, or if someone was just shouting into a phone with no one on the other end. Please contact PADI yourself at:

PADI Americas
30151 Tomas
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-2125
USA
Ph: 800 729 7234 (US and Canada)
Ph: +1 949 858 7234
Fax: +1 949 267 1267
Email: webmaster@padi.com

You should consider doing this for the sake of future divers who also don't feel that they can say No to the DM.