Diverl
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I am looking at taking a decompression course and want to do a little advanced research. I am trying to find info on the theory and some of the calculations. Can any one tell me where I might find some of this information?
Decompression Theory
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The Army Diving Manual has a ton of information. You can download it in it's entirety from http://www.scubatoys.com
I have been reading through parts of it and it has an amazing amount of information.
Lost Yooper
Guest
Greetings,
My advice is to stear clear of any instructor teaching deep air and as well as not utilizing and teaching deep stops for starters. I've long since lost respect for IANTD and TDI, and as such I haven't kept up too much on their policies. In my opinion, the only agency that I'm aware of that is putting out truly quality training is GUE (www.gue.com). However, just to cover that statement a bit, there are many instructors out there that take it upon themselves to continue learning and put aside some of the junk they were taught by their agency and instead teach other techniques not necesarily in accordance with their certifying agency. Bottom line -- the instructor can make all the difference in the world. If you do you own research for awhile, you may be able to "interview" various instructors to ensure they are "in the ball game".
That being said, here's some interesting reading that I hand out regarding deco stuff (I copied and pasted so hopefully it turns out OK):
Eric Maiken
http://www.decompression.org/maiken/Bubble_Decompression_Strategies.htm
Eric Maiken
http://www.decompression.org/maiken/VPM/Bubble_Model_Program_Info.htm
Eric Baker
ftp://decompression.org/pub/Baker/Deep Stops.pdf
Bruce Weinke and other publications.
http://www.abysmal.com/pages/articles.html
Bruce Weinke
http://www.acdlabs.com/webzine/17/17_3.html
RGBM
http://website.lineone.net/~britannic98/prep/rgbm.htm
Richard Pyle -- Interesting intro to deep stops, but don't take it to heart.
http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/pile/deepstops.html
Good luck.
My advice is to stear clear of any instructor teaching deep air and as well as not utilizing and teaching deep stops for starters. I've long since lost respect for IANTD and TDI, and as such I haven't kept up too much on their policies. In my opinion, the only agency that I'm aware of that is putting out truly quality training is GUE (www.gue.com). However, just to cover that statement a bit, there are many instructors out there that take it upon themselves to continue learning and put aside some of the junk they were taught by their agency and instead teach other techniques not necesarily in accordance with their certifying agency. Bottom line -- the instructor can make all the difference in the world. If you do you own research for awhile, you may be able to "interview" various instructors to ensure they are "in the ball game".
That being said, here's some interesting reading that I hand out regarding deco stuff (I copied and pasted so hopefully it turns out OK):
Eric Maiken
http://www.decompression.org/maiken/Bubble_Decompression_Strategies.htm
Eric Maiken
http://www.decompression.org/maiken/VPM/Bubble_Model_Program_Info.htm
Eric Baker
ftp://decompression.org/pub/Baker/Deep Stops.pdf
Bruce Weinke and other publications.
http://www.abysmal.com/pages/articles.html
Bruce Weinke
http://www.acdlabs.com/webzine/17/17_3.html
RGBM
http://website.lineone.net/~britannic98/prep/rgbm.htm
Richard Pyle -- Interesting intro to deep stops, but don't take it to heart.
http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/pile/deepstops.html
Good luck.
Lost Yoopers-
One has to know the basic Haldanian-based theories of decomprression diving before indulging in VPM oror RGBM. Those two are actualy based on it themselves, only take it further by implementing a lot of new factors into the equasions.
About technical diving- I don't think that GUE's methods are right for everyone. (btw-thanks for the links you gave me in emai, it was very interesting) For most people and their intentions the standard aproach, such IANTD's, is good enough, and in itself, it is good.
The implementation of deep stops is something tricky. Dual phased decompression is a new theory that takes it further, but for most technical divers, it is not nessessary. Teaching someone too much may be a as much as a problem as not teaching at all, becouse he can mix up things.
Diverl-
If you are already familiar with the basics of the haldanian based decompresion models, than you can go on and read the researches suplied by lost yoopers, otherwise, it may just confuse you. you can start by reading a manual for a dive-master level course, it usualy holds a thorough explanation of the basics of the haldanian theory. You must first understand well concepts such as "m-value", "half-tissu time", "critical tenssion" and such before starting with RGBM and VPM.
One last thing- In order to become a technical diver, you do not need to understand all of the above. In order to become a technical diver you need to be able to perform things that are based on it. To do a decompression dive, you must be able to use a table properly, but not to understand the mathematics behind it. That's up to you.
One has to know the basic Haldanian-based theories of decomprression diving before indulging in VPM oror RGBM. Those two are actualy based on it themselves, only take it further by implementing a lot of new factors into the equasions.
About technical diving- I don't think that GUE's methods are right for everyone. (btw-thanks for the links you gave me in emai, it was very interesting) For most people and their intentions the standard aproach, such IANTD's, is good enough, and in itself, it is good.
The implementation of deep stops is something tricky. Dual phased decompression is a new theory that takes it further, but for most technical divers, it is not nessessary. Teaching someone too much may be a as much as a problem as not teaching at all, becouse he can mix up things.
Diverl-
If you are already familiar with the basics of the haldanian based decompresion models, than you can go on and read the researches suplied by lost yoopers, otherwise, it may just confuse you. you can start by reading a manual for a dive-master level course, it usualy holds a thorough explanation of the basics of the haldanian theory. You must first understand well concepts such as "m-value", "half-tissu time", "critical tenssion" and such before starting with RGBM and VPM.
One last thing- In order to become a technical diver, you do not need to understand all of the above. In order to become a technical diver you need to be able to perform things that are based on it. To do a decompression dive, you must be able to use a table properly, but not to understand the mathematics behind it. That's up to you.
Lost Yooper
Guest
I will agree with Liquid in that to be a tech diver you don't really need to know the guts of diving physiology. Some people really dig that stuff which is why I posted the links I did. I don't even try for the most part. However, I strongly urge you to avoid so called "bend and mend" diving philosophy and instead incorporate deep stops and use proper deco gasses into your diving profiles. Target the micro bubbles, and you'll come out feeling 1000% better.
There's always "good enough" I guess. To say that GUE's training isn't right for anyone sure seems odd to me. GUE's training and philosophy are working in some of the most demanding diving environmemts in the world, and their track record as an agency is quite remarkable from what seen. The last I heard, IANTD/TDI advocated technical/cave solo diving, deep air, and closed circuit rebreathers, and their students have dropped like flies as the result of their philoshophy. I won't get into a big debate on the various training agencies, but in my humble opinion most agencies are more concerned about making money and saving face than taking a serious look at what is working and what is not.
Good luck to all.
Mike
There's always "good enough" I guess. To say that GUE's training isn't right for anyone sure seems odd to me. GUE's training and philosophy are working in some of the most demanding diving environmemts in the world, and their track record as an agency is quite remarkable from what seen. The last I heard, IANTD/TDI advocated technical/cave solo diving, deep air, and closed circuit rebreathers, and their students have dropped like flies as the result of their philoshophy. I won't get into a big debate on the various training agencies, but in my humble opinion most agencies are more concerned about making money and saving face than taking a serious look at what is working and what is not.
Good luck to all.
Mike
lost yoopers-
We actualy already had this discussion, but still...
Like I said- I hold great respect for GUE, the founders are of the world's best of what they are doing. some of the material I recived thanks to you was really interesting. but like I said- what this guys do, is basicaly, incorporating some of the Comercial methods into Technical diving. In itself, it is not bad, but for some people it is to complecated.
From what I saw in the GUE movie, I can't point a single thing that is special only to GUE. The only reall big difference is the use of the tables, and the way GUE does it, the "DIR" way, is certainly not for everyone!
Before cutting tables, one must have a certain amount of knowledge, that alas, most people dont have.
We actualy already had this discussion, but still...
Like I said- I hold great respect for GUE, the founders are of the world's best of what they are doing. some of the material I recived thanks to you was really interesting. but like I said- what this guys do, is basicaly, incorporating some of the Comercial methods into Technical diving. In itself, it is not bad, but for some people it is to complecated.
From what I saw in the GUE movie, I can't point a single thing that is special only to GUE. The only reall big difference is the use of the tables, and the way GUE does it, the "DIR" way, is certainly not for everyone!
Before cutting tables, one must have a certain amount of knowledge, that alas, most people dont have.
Lost Yooper
Guest
We agree for the most part. It's the entire package that GUE offers, not individual aspects that makes GUE so unique. Their standards are very high which seems to attest to their desire to put out truly high quality students. IMO, they advocate a relatively basic, uncomplicated diving philosophy that is relatively easy to learn, teach, and execute underwater.
Mike
Mike
Oh well....
Dear lost yoopers-
All i can say is that I wish there was a GUE spot in Israel, so I could see for myself the thing for reall, not just from the web, but alas...
The only tech organisations we have are ANDI and IANTD.
Dear lost yoopers-
All i can say is that I wish there was a GUE spot in Israel, so I could see for myself the thing for reall, not just from the web, but alas...
The only tech organisations we have are ANDI and IANTD.
Dr Deco
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Dear Diverl:
The best that I can say is to carefully study the material reference by Lost Yooper. It is good instructional material.
This field is progressing at a new rate. When I started in 1969, the goals were deep Haldane bounce dives and saturation for commercial use. This was coupled with oxygen for therapy. None of this is a topic anymore.
Since I enjoy the theoretical portion of diving, I am always interested when other are fascinated by this aspect also.
Dr Deco
The best that I can say is to carefully study the material reference by Lost Yooper. It is good instructional material.
This field is progressing at a new rate. When I started in 1969, the goals were deep Haldane bounce dives and saturation for commercial use. This was coupled with oxygen for therapy. None of this is a topic anymore.
Since I enjoy the theoretical portion of diving, I am always interested when other are fascinated by this aspect also.
Dr Deco
Few things irritate me more than broad-brush condemnations without substantiating facts and figures. And so it is with Lost Yooper's slam of IANTD and TDI.
Care to offer any specifics that warrant your "lost respect" from current standards of practice or current publications from either of these agencies, LY?
An errant instructor isn't grounds to diss the whole agency, by the way.
Rick
Care to offer any specifics that warrant your "lost respect" from current standards of practice or current publications from either of these agencies, LY?
An errant instructor isn't grounds to diss the whole agency, by the way.
Rick
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