DECO Dives

[muddiver]

I think that if you check with BladesRobinson, that diving deeper than 130' (the recreational industry standard limit) is outside of the reccognized, non-commercial diving limits that are exempted by OSHA. The industry standard for PSD, Blades will correct me if I am wrong, is in line with the major recreational diving certification agencies standards of 130' max., no-decompression, no hard overhead diving.

 

[sardiverdan]

OSHA has no control over a PSD team while they are in the performance of doing PSD type dives. If a PSD team is used to say fix a sinking pier, then OSHA may apply.....

 

[sardiverdan]

Again folks, not looking to argue about what is right and what is wrong. Just trying to get a feel for what other dive teams are doing out there these days.

 

[BladesRobinson]

I think that if you check with BladesRobinson, that diving deeper than 130' (the recreational industry standard limit) is outside of the reccognized, non-commercial diving limits that are exempted by OSHA. The industry standard for PSD, Blades will correct me if I am wrong, is in line with the major recreational diving certification agencies standards of 130' max., no-decompression, no hard overhead diving.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MUDDIVER,

It is my opinion that TECHNICALLY, the OSHA Standard does not apply to public safety divers doing public safety dive functions. We have debated that issue to death previously and there is no need to open that can of worms. Anyone that is not familiar with the online discussion last month can review the thread at" http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/public-safety-divers/281815-psd-teams-osha-nfpa-compliance.html

I always suggest though that teams work hard to comply with OSHA when feasible and it is my opinion that in many instances it is feasible to dive within the no deco limits. Right up to the point where you have a repeat of the TWA 800 crash ...

Many may recall that tragedy and there is no dispute that a lot of evidence was recovered by the public safety divers (I lump nearly everyone into the PSD category other than the military divers). We also know that those dives came with a price and some near miss incidents. I recall that at least one diver was bent but I do not know his status today.

There were many public safety divers participating and I think many were glad there weren't more injuries but all of us in the community can likely agree that one (serious?) injury is too many.

There were many risk/benefit decisions that were made following the TWA 800 incident and none of us on this forum are entitled to Monday morning quarterback those decisions; we can learn from them though. Given the exact same incident today I am uncertain if anything would be done differently other than possibly using Nitrox and having a more organized incident command system in place that would include more safety officers, limiting the number of repetitive dives and shortening bottom times.

Using the TWA 800 as a real life incident though, no one saw OSHA around with a ticket book writing citations so that is another reason I am sticking to my guns on the OSHA/PSD debate and say PSDs are EXEMPT.

I believe we can agree that nearly all of the "routine" incidents that PSDs conduct on a day in and day out basis pale in contrast to the TWA 800 incident. If we can agree to that, then we can likely agree that exceeding the no decompression limits on SCUBA is not justified a majority of the time when a prudent risk/benefit analysis is done. And doing such a dive subjects the team leader, his supervisor (chief) and the municipality to huge potential liability, as evidenced by another recent thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/pu...ng-officer-charged-firefighters-drowning.html

In the paragraphs above though, you will notice that there is "wiggle room," especially when I use vague references to "nearly all" and "a majority of the time." I know that there is going to be an incident when a team will make the right call and make the tough decision to go an extra inch for an extra second and fall outside the no deco limits. When that happens, I just hope the diver returns to the surface safely and we don't read about the incident on the ScubaBoard accident thread. If a fatality does happen, I would not be surprised to see a team leader/instructor going to jail, though I can't think what the charge would be. I am guessing some creative cop (possibly on this forum) could think of a charge that would require an overnight stay. Maybe a "Baker Act" for mental evaluation?

I have always said that if you give a good team good training and good equipment, they will make good decisions. And you won't find me second guessing those decisions even if they include deco dives.

To address your (MUDDUVER's) last question, I do not believe that the NFPA standard addresses decompression diving. I will try to remember to bring this up at the IADRS Conference when the membership discusses future recommendations for the NFPA standard. For those who are interested in attending the IADRS conference / International Public Safety Diver Conference in September, please see:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/pu...rnational-public-safety-diver-conference.html

Respectfully,

Blades Robinson

 

[udtfire]

we have a specilized group that are capable but they operate as a comercial under contract operation not under psd

 

[Gary D.]

Safe easy way to treat this. Rescue mode; lots of things will be and are over looked in the rule books. Recovery mode; you better play by the rules and have your ducks in a row.

Remember,We risk a lot to save a viable life. We risk little to save little and we risk nothing to save nothing.

 

[Desert_Pirate]

Safe easy way to treat this. Rescue mode; lots of things will be and are over looked in the rule books. Recovery mode; you better play by the rules and have your ducks in a row.

Remember,We risk a lot to save a viable life. We risk little to save little and we risk nothing to save nothing.

I love it when the point is clear and I dont have to read a book to get

 

[muddiver]

Since I am back at work and I have time to return to this thread I am going to add my last 2bits.

Ok, I will stand corrected that the PSD community is impervious to the distant threat of OSHA in the U.S. Feel free to do as you wish.

In an emergency where the goal is to save lives, as a former firefighter/EMT, I will not argue the point that doing what you need, to get the job done is the name of the game. Otherwise you would all be driving to rescues in stripped down Toyota Presus sedans to meet the dive van to do a Job Hazard Analisys before laying out the whips from the compressor to the air rack and deck decompression chamber, which could not be used until the Life Support Technician arrived from across town on the local bus line.

The other side of the coin is, the number of cylinders needed to do a planned decompression dive to get any work done at a much greater risk then just multiple no-deco dives, or diving surface supplied is a pretty large number. Add more than one dive team to the mix and you just tripled the number of cylinders. That doesn't sound like a smart "means-to-an-end" to me.

I agree that trying to armchair quarterback any rescue or operation involving the work we are discussing is a real oxymoron. There are way too many observations and missing information to eveny try to second guess the guys on the scene.

The whole NFPA and diving thing is a new one on me, I got out of the rescue business over twenty years ago. It's good to see that one of the public safety guideline agencies has taken the task of publishing some standards for diving for rescue work.

Mudd clear.