DAN Report on Diving Fatalities

[diverrex]

I propose we fix this problem making two universal alarms for every dive computer sold in the future. One automatic, continuous alarm for a diver who has fallen below 500 psi and a different alarm manually activated for a diver in need of assistance. I then propose that every SCUBA training agency adopt a curriculum that teaches the student to identify these alarms and know their meaning.

If the computer manufactures will not come to an agreed upon alarm. I propose that legislation measures that will prevent, or allow them to sell their computers.

I feel that strongly about it.

I wouldn't want to dive with someone that had an alarm that went off at 500 PSI and stayed on. I feel that strongly about it. If I am under the boat I will sometimes continue a dive after hitting 500 PSI, usually not much below 300 PSI but at only 20 FSW 200 PSI can give you quite a bit of time to still see things. You don't die the instant you get to 500 PSI.

And any kind of scuba legislation no way!

You can push this position all you want you won't get any support from divers for it.

 

[debajo agua]

Debajo agua, not everyone uses a computer and the more complicated diving that people do, likely the less computers are used. It probably won't be possible to regulate computer use any more than the features of the computer, although a specific alarm might be useful. You could propose it to computer manufacturers.

If divers were always aware of their gas supply and how to manage it; could handle dive emergencies proficiently; maintained situational awareness, stayed within a fin kick of their buddy(ies) and maintained visual contact - a two-tiered alarm wouldn't be necessary, would it?

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Yes, divers could be better... but the statistics show they're not. 150 deaths annually... that's a lot. How long before someone in the insurance industry, or a lawmaker, starts saying we need more rules for this activity? Wouldn't it be better, if we as a diving community, were pro-active in getting this number decreased? I'd prefer that over someone who's not a diver making rules.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2013 at 09:37 AM ----------

I wouldn't want to dive with someone that had an alarm that went off at 500 PSI and stayed on. I feel that strongly about it. If I am under the boat I will sometimes continue a dive after hitting 500 PSI, usually not much below 300 PSI but at only 20 FSW 200 PSI can give you quite a bit of time to still see things. You don't die the instant you get to 500 PSI.

And any kind of scuba legislation no way!

You can push this position all you want you won't get any support from divers for it.

No offense, but you are my case and point. If something goes wrong (like your gauges are slightly off) you've put other people at risk (the people who will come to your aid) unnecessarily. I have to have faith, that my buddy won't jeopardize us both, by pushing too close to the limits. I don't like having to have faith in people, they'll disappoint you. I'd rather know.

Gauges can malfunction and can be slightly off. I've seen this first hand.

 

[InTheDrink]

Alarms are extremely annoying. Especially persistent ones worn by others. Drives me mad when someone - and can never work out who because of sound characteristics in water - has some crap device that just goes off the whole time. Argh!!!!

I think the risk of additional deaths through underwater homicide would be far greater than any saved by bringing in mandatory 500psi alarms

 

[tech_diver]

"150 deaths annually... that's a lot"

Is it a lot? One fatality is too much if it is someone you know or if it was caused by blatant negligence.

But if 850 million divers are doing three dives a day it's not a lot.

It always come back to that elusive denominator. We don't know exactly how many people are doing how many dives a year. Each of us in the industry has a guess based on our experience and research but no definite database to back it up.

We can talk confidently about some generalities...

The number of annual scuba deaths has hovered around 100-130 per year for the last twenty-five years even though the number of active divers has increased by an order of magnitude.
A significant percentage of those fatalities are health related or related to people breaking the basic rules (uncertified diving, uncertified caving, etc.)

I don't see the government making these things better.

 

[debajo agua]

Alarms are extremely annoying. Especially persistent ones worn by others. Drives me mad when someone - and can never work out who because of sound characteristics in water - has some crap device that just goes off the whole time. Argh!!!!

I think the risk of additional deaths through underwater homicide would be far greater than any saved by bringing in mandatory 500psi alarms

I feel your pain, but what bothers me more...not knowing why someone's alarm is going off? Are they in trouble? Is computer too sensitive? Are they just low on batteries? If we had two universals alarms for "almost OOA" and "I have an emergency". As long as I don't hear those alarms, I could relax a little more.

That's exactly what we have in the Fire Service and it works.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2013 at 10:15 AM ----------

The number of annual scuba deaths has hovered around 100-130 per year for the last twenty-five years even though the number of active divers has increased by an order of magnitude.
A significant percentage of those fatalities are health related or related to people breaking the basic rules (uncertified diving, uncertified caving, etc.)

I don't see the government making these things better.

By knowing what's going on with your buddy's equipment, I believe divers themselves could make the sport safer. The whole purpose of having a buddy is to save your a#$ if something goes wrong with your equipment, shouldn't that buddy be privy with some sort of warning signal?

---------- Post added January 4th, 2013 at 10:28 AM ----------

"150 deaths annually... that's a lot"

Is it a lot?

Let's say 130 per year. That's 1300 deaths in 10 years? Is it a lot?

 

[Thalassamania]

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Yes, divers could be better... but the statistics show they're not. 150 deaths annually... that's a lot. How long before someone in the insurance industry, or a lawmaker, starts saying we need more rules for this activity? Wouldn't it be better, if we as a diving community, were pro-active in getting this number decreased? I'd prefer that over someone who's not a diver making rules.

Those numbers came from Harris Taylor at Michigan. You need to read his whole piece (it's short) to see that he's arguing that the risk of dying is relatively low.

 

[Ayisha]

Yes, divers could be better... but the statistics show they're not. 150 deaths annually... that's a lot.

It's impossible to come to that conclusion without knowing the denominator. It's also impossible without looking at the cause or trigger of the accident. All deaths that occur during diving are not created equally. Some natural/health related deaths are considered diving related simply because they occurred while diving.

How long before someone in the insurance industry, or a lawmaker, starts saying we need more rules for this activity? Wouldn't it be better, if we as a diving community, were pro-active in getting this number decreased? I'd prefer that over someone who's not a diver making rules.

Being pro-active about decreasing the number of dive-related accidents also involves being pro-active in your diving protocols. Be a better diver and better buddy and reduce the chances of having a dive accident. You know what they say about trying to build (or legislate) something foolproof...

Gauges can malfunction and can be slightly off. I've seen this first hand.

Computers can and do malfunction as well. There are protocols for that and if you just looked at your gauges/computer in the last couple of minutes, and you're familiar with your gas consumption, you will know all your vitals and know exactly what to do. Relying exclusively on a piece of equipment in the absence of skills would be foolhardy.

We've already exposed some of the ways this two-tiered alarm can malfunction. It may not be heard, it may not be able to be located if it is heard, it may be turned off, the batteries may be low, the computer may malfunction... It is not foolproof.

By knowing what's going on with your buddy's equipment, I believe divers themselves could make the sport safer. The whole purpose of having a buddy is to save your a#$ if something goes wrong with your equipment, shouldn't that buddy be privy with some sort of warning signal?

The primary person to save your a#$ if something goes wrong is YOU. We should all strive to be self-reliant and be able to self-rescue as well as assist someone else in an emergency. If not, how can you put your trust in a similar buddy? If we're not confident in those extremely important abilities and can't get past the notion that someone else will always save us, then we should re-do our o/w and/or rescue certification with an instructor who will not pass us until we master all the skills we should have already learned.

 

[peterbj7]

{ keep seeing this "The whole purpose of having a buddy is to save your a#$ if something goes wrong". I totally disagree. To me a buddy is a liability, someone I have to look out for and maybe think for. I am much happier diving when I don't have a buddy.

 

[Bob DBF]

By the way, it is quite possible to keep your glottis open, even whilst neither inhaling nor exhaling, or even while free diving.

A mighty usefull peice of information to have.

When I was little, around 5, and learning to swim I had the usual problem of water up the nose, my mom explained that I had to keep a bubble of air in my nose and mouth by by breathing out. If you breath out too much you make bubbles and run out of air quickly, and too little you wind up with water up your nose. As soon as I figured how to do it well I started freediving and haven't quit yet. In order to do this at depth you have to have your glottis open to pressurise your mouth, nose and ears to ambiant whether freediving or with SCUBA. Yet another reason for divers to know how to freedive.

You can indite buddy buddy breathing for being too complex, for requiring too much practice, or for being plain old too hard to do,...

Buddy breathing requires self restraint and a belief in your buddy's abilities, as well as your own. I understand the proliferation of the safe second and I did not decry it's use when it came on the scene, but it was a gear answer to a skills problem.


As for alarms, it sounds good on paper, but does that mean I have to buy an alarm to put on my SPG? My Depth gauge? My Tables? It's going to be a real beauty for me to hear it through my hood. Why not just go to training responsible divers?




Bob
------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

The problem with alarms is that the manufacturer has to make some assumptions to base the alarms on. There is a separate thread titled “Getting my head around rock bottom” where it was pretty clear that different people make different assumptions for gas planning. There will be people who plan more, or less, conservatively than the manufacture does. In fact the manufacturer may plan in an entirely different way, and it often will be inappropriate to a given dive. Decompression planning has similar issues. Because of that many people end up turning the alarms off and diving their own plan or going into gauge mode. Of course if it was possible to change the computer setting to reflect individuals approach that would be an advantage but then your buddies would have to do the same thing. Having good pre and post dive briefings is generally the easier approach. Diving with people that are on the same page from the get go makes life a lot easier.

If you dive with someone who is a liability then you are not trying very hard at planning the dive. Of course there are a few that are just unsafe, but they are the exception.