Dahab - Rude Manager at Red Sea Relax. Buyer beware

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

DevonDiver, it seems like we have a very different perspective on things.

On that point, I could not agree more. I think I've expressed my opinion on your actions, or lack of, sufficiently well - so am not interested in further explanations or clarification. My sympathies lie entirely with the dive operation concerned and I pity them for having encountered you.

As mentioned in my last post, I am interested in further debate about how social media exposes businesses to unwarranted assassinations, whether deliberate (as in your case) or accidental (through customers lacking awareness of the impacts of their hasty actions). I am also interested in how businesses deal with those situations - having not been given a decent opportunity to otherwise address a consumers problems.

As your mindset represent the cause, not the solution, to these issues - I sincerely doubt I will find any contributions you make on the subject particularly insightful.
 
As mentioned in my last post, I am interested in further debate about how social media exposes businesses to unwarranted assassinations, whether deliberate (as in your case) or accidental (through customers lacking awareness of the impacts of their hasty actions). I am also interested in how businesses deal with those situations - having not been given a decent opportunity to otherwise address a consumers problems.

It's a very interesting subject - maybe you should start a new thread about it? As I wrote in a previous post, it is one thing to notice a negative post on a frequently visited site - but there are so many forums out there, and we can hardly spend hours every day checking up on reviews about ourselves. Fortunately, we haven't experienced any "attacks", but I have come across a couple of reviews in obscure places, that were factually wrong (for instance one stated we don't exist anymore, one stated we only dive 3 days per week). It's frustrating, and there really isn't much we can do about it as far as I know - apart from spending hours roaming the web.

I tell myself that as long as the reviews and posts on the "big ones" - i.e. TripAdvisor, ScubaBoard etc - are correct, it's good enough. If we do get a slanderous post on one of those, I'll respond to it for sure. So far I have seen companies asking their own staff to post reviews, and I've seen them posting reviews on competitors as well - but we haven't been in that situation (yet).

The awareness that someone can post a devastating review isn't on my mind when dealing with guests, and it will not change my attitude or behavior - but it is scary to think that a person could damage our company by posting lies about us, and get away with it.

There is of course no connection between this post and the original op - it's just reacting to DevonDiver. Oh, one more thing on the side: I have now lived in countries where voicemail isn't available for 7 years. I would love to discover voicemail, but it's not available. And it wouldn't help me anyway; I'll always have to answer the phone, because it could be an emergency as well (medical issues or boat off the mooring etc etc). But I'm a little tired of that discussion now - there's a huge gap between people who live out here in the outskirts of civilization and those who live in the US or Europe; and unless a person has experienced life out here, he/she won't be able to imagine the differences.

Happy diving everyone
Karin :D
 
Mike - did you ever leave the US borders? You perspective on things seems incredibly blinkered - and shows little empathy or understanding.

I'll just ignore that, since I'm sure you don't mean it as a personal attack even though it comes off as one.

You agree that this situation is something that'd cause YOU to employ the services of a lawyer and internet consultants to fix...thus, a serious threat to business demanding a most serious legal response... and yet you have an absolute lack of empathy for the victim concerned, who doesn't have access to resources that you have at your disposal.

No. You're absolutely wrong. I don't agree that this situation and the one you painted asking me what I would do are even remotely close to each other. I clearly demonstrated that I see no coorelation to the hypothetical situation you described and how I would react to it and this one. Again to be clear this situation in my opinion in this incident from the OP in this thread is hardly as dramatic as the scenario you laid out for me and how I would react to it in my business.

At this point, you seem to be passing yourself off as some type of 'holier than thou' figure... who cannot conceive the emotional response that Paul made to the attack. Are you saying that you never got angry when provoked? Not ever?

I'm as human as the next person. However, the discussion from me has never been about forgiveness of a mistake, but simply what is the right thing to do.

Yes, Paul was ill-advised to send an emotionally driven email to the person that attacked his business and livelihood. However, that is understandable.

Again, there is where you seem to have the disconnection, the discussion isn't about 'understandable' or forgiveness. It's been about what is right and wrong. Simple as that. The manager shouldn't have sent the email. The fact that he did shows who he is. Is he human and capable of making mistakes? Obviously so. Should he have done it? NO. Would I hold it against him. YES.



Likewise, for the attack to have originated from a 'fellow professional' in the scuba industry brings about a wider scope of issues - because a baseline understanding of the situation can be assumed on behalf of the attacker. YOU may not understand such industry-related considerations (not having worked in the industry), but those of us who do...understand.

Oh boy. :shakehead: Here' raises the ugly head of the 'thin blue line' the notion of brotherhood. The same idea that there is an unspoken code in the police force that creates looking the other way, the give your brother a pass...

Apparently your notion of this only works one way. The OP was supposed to give the manager a pass on all this because of his industry brotherhood. However you don't apply the same logic that would dictate the manager should have done the same for the OP. Why was the OP not given professional courtesy when he made the call to his 'brother' in the industry?

All this venom that was directed at the OP from the manager because the manager's employee gave out his phone number and the manager answered a phone call during a birthday party.

WHY ISN'T THE MANAGER MAD AT HIS EMPLOYEE FOR NOT SCREENING THE OP?

If the manager has any idea how to manage, step #1 would be to train and/or empower his dive shop employee on when and when not to give out his personal phone number to a customer. And that would be the end of the story. The manager wants to place blame everywhere but on himself for his own weaknesses. He would rather direct his anger at a customer by sending a venomous, childish, sarcastic email to him, rather than address the problem that his employee isn't trained well enough to screen his calls, knowing when to and when not to give out his personal phone number.

Let me just sum it up very quickly and easily.

IN MY OPINION -

Get voice mail on your phone.
Discuss a policy with your staff when to and when not to give out your phone number
Accept that if you do choose to answer a phone call, you are now required to spend the time required to deal with the person on the other end
Don't send aggressive, sarcastic, unprofessional emails
Learn how to get customers to post positive reviews on online review websites
Accept that every customer is not your ideal customer, accept you will have problems, but pledge to only take actions that will reduce the problem not increase it
When it comes to business --- #1 - be the bigger man.

OR -- Keep dressing down customers and run the risk of your antics being exposed for the rest of the public to read about.



 
IN MY OPINION -

Get voice mail on your phone. As as been amply highlighted to you - not available in many locations.
Discuss a policy with your staff when to and when not to give out your phone number Agreed. But the OP would have probably thrown an equal trantrum had he been told that also.
Accept that if you do choose to answer a phone call, you are now required to spend the time required to deal with the person on the other end Utter rubbish. Dive center managers keep their phone available...and answer it to unknown numbers because there are genuine health, safety and operational issues that require 24 hour availability. A customer who wants to interogate the manager over the next day's diving schedule etc, is NOT an emergency, not urgent and not deserving a suspension of the manager's free time.
Don't send aggressive, sarcastic, unprofessional emails Agreed. Customers shouldn't be responded to that way. Strangers, who assassinate your business anonymously on the internet, without the courtesy of contacting you to raise the issue first don't fall into that bracket.
Learn how to get customers to post positive reviews on online review websites In this instance, the OP wasn't a customer and hadn't raised any issue for the manager to address. It was an ambush from a stranger. You're expecting clairvoyancy if you think Paul could have done anything to intercept and address this problem before the public attack was staged.
Accept that every customer is not your ideal customer, accept you will have problems, but pledge to only take actions that will reduce the problem not increase it What part of "he wasn't a customer of the shop" don't you understand?

As I said... blinkered and presuming of a lot of things, which you have no experience of. I intend that as an observation, not an insult. If you can't see the logical flaw in lecturing a 20 year diver/pro on the nature of the scuba industry, when you've never worked in that industry,..likewise with the nature of working in a foreign country...then I doubt you've got the capacity to understand another person's perspective.

You are welcome to your opinions, as are we all. I don't see much more scope for discussion however, as you do seem unable to accept certain facts that have been presented to you by several dive pros and residents in the Middle East/Red Sea. If you feel you know better...and don't need to revise your opinions in the light of those facts... then that's also your right.

 
Thanks Devon, I will, just as you'll keep believing because it's the dive industry, that makes it's okay to act unprofessional out of the water just as long as you act professional in the water.

Unfortunately, the problem with your belief is that consumer don't believe it, and tripadvisor.com exists for them to voice it.
 
Unfortunately, the problem with your belief is that consumer don't believe it, and tripadvisor.com exists for them to voice it.

Which, in this instance, was why the OP got booted from tripadvisor - because he wasn't a consumer who had used the business concerned (as they disclaimer and policies insist).

As I said... the issue of social media and the scuba industry is well worthy of discussion. There have been threads about tripadvisor here on the forum before...and it's an issue that every customer-serving business person needs to be aware of.

The issue with specific sites can be understood, but the wider implications - for example, the impact that has on Google search, often is not. If you look at the Google search for 'Red Sea Relax' (https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=red+sea+relax&btnG=Google+Search&meta=) you can see that their website is ranked 1 on the page. Following that is a bunch of links to tripadvisor. At the bottom, still on the 1st page of Google, is a link to this very thread.

Most businesses spend a fortune to get their website onto the 1st page of a Google search. A 'virtual assassin' can get a damaging complaint into the same web-space with just a click of a button.

Not only does a bad report feature on an individual social media site - but it also haunts the business via search engine results. That's pretty catastrophic for a business - especially a tourism related one that relies heavily on internet traffic to produce bookings. Especially so as the Google 'clip' only shows a summary, or the first line/title of the review/thread etc.

Good customer service is essential to minimize instances of negative reviews. Most half-way competent business people can recognize that. But what of the instances where the complainant goes directly to social media... and neglects to give a business any chance to rectify a failing? What if the complainant isn't even a customer of the business concerned?

There seems to be an increasing trend to these 'virtual assassinations'. We see it on this board at least once per week. In most instances, the complainant/assassin has never bothered to make contact with the dive operation/target in order to voice their complaint in the 'traditional' way. More often than not, such complaints would be dealt with diplomatically and effectively by the businesses... but the 'assassination' strategy prevents that response.

The question I ask is whether this new 'power' is raising the expectations of consumers - who, if so inclined, know they can stab a knife in the back of any business that fails to meet their rapidly expanding demands?

Does a business need to become paranoid that any inter-action, regardless how brief or inconsequential, with a customer or potential customer can turn into a financially damaging - possibly business ruining - virtual assassination?

Your answer was to hire consultants and lawyers for protection. That is not within the scope of many business - especially in the scuba industry...and even more especially when such issues occur across international borders. So what is left to do? Pander to each and every unreasonable demand...tread on eggshells with every customer in case they are unstable and vindictive?
 
It seems to me we're going round in circles now, having to repeatedly point out facts that are summarily ignored such as: Voicemail is not always available in Egypt - a point made several times - which engenders the response: get voicemail, it's 2012. Possibly somebody might want to take this up with the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces who are busy doing other things, such as trying to prevent the entire country from deteriorating into civil war.

It's a whole different world, managing a dive centre in a developing nation rather than a business in America or Europe - another example is the internet presence in Egypt - my internet connection is so poor I have to copy and paste every single post I make here and then keep pushing away at the Post Reply button in the hope that one of them will get through... I currently have a connection speed of 5 kilobits per second... as opposed to 1,500kb per second that I had in Switzerland ... and this is NORMAL. The technological infrastructure to support more advanced communication does not even exist here, and although I can buy better internet access, I can't afford it, and it still wouldn't compare to Europe and America.

Please note that the second Red Sea Relax review posted here by Mike was a review of the resort, not the dive centre - the two are not the same, although one is inside the other - and is one of only two negative reviews of about 120 or so, and, rather similarly to the OP's complaint, based on very limited experience and factually inaccurate. Whilst the reply is not so angry, it is, if you read it closely, rather scathing.

Mike - you have no experience of the dive industry other than being a customer and yet you insist on telling a group of dive professionals who have a combined total of well over 50 years' worth of experience in the business, with thousands and thousands of dives between them (99.99% of which had customers along with us), that we don't know how to run the business in which we work. As DevonDiver said - we would not presume to lecture you on how to run a construction business. The fact that you still have a business in what you say is the number 1 hardest hit industry in America shows that you have good management skills when it comes to the business in which you work. Comparing it to the dive industry, on the other hand, is like comparing apples with sheep. The fact that Red Sea Relax dive centre is still in business, in the current climate - of which you have no knowledge or experience - shows that the manager is not just a great manager, he's a *really* great manager.

And in response to the last post by black_sea - the customer is not always king, actually. However if one wishes to be treated like a king it is worth remembering that King Edward II of England was executed by (allegedly) having a red hot poker inserted up his rear end. Sometimes they roll out the red carpet, sometimes they string up the gallows. I am speaking metaphorically here of course, because I am a peaceable sort of fellow and would not wish to inflict injury on another human being - but that lofty sort of attitude just means you have further to fall, or greater depths to sink to, when everybody on the dive boat starts wishing they had a red hot poker.

We don't believe - none of us do - that it's okay to act (sic) unprofessional[ly] at any time simply because we are in the dive industry. The OP acted unprofessionally when he posted his review on Tripadvisor; Paul's response was maybe not the greatest but he had a valid reason to be angry; most of us accept it was the wrong thing to do and yet the most unprofessional poster on this thread is somebody who has no experience of the dive industry, has probably never visited Egypt, and who relies on voicemail to deal with customers. I would suggest that is was more polite of Red Sea Relax's manager to answer his phone in the first place, rather than direct the OP's call to an electronic answering machine.

So I'm looking forward to my next trip to Dahab where I can sup some cold beers with some of the fine folk who have posted here on this thread, and you know what? I reckon that Red Sea Relax has come out on top - firstly because more people on this thread have come out in their support, and secondly, because there's no chance that if they go there, they will have to put up with the whinging from those that didn't.

Enough.

Peace out,

C.
 
Which, in this instance, was why the OP got booted from tripadvisor - because he wasn't a consumer who had used the business concerned (as they disclaimer and policies insist).

Well, there you go, all this for nothing. Paul could have just bided his time, never sent his email and nobody would have been the wiser.

As a business owner I prefer review sites and organizations that don't allow consumers to post reviews about a business unless they do business with the company. One of my main reasons why I think Angies List is such a piece of crap is that they allow all their whiney members to post reviews of businesses even though they haven't done business with them. I'm glad tripadvisor follows the other approach.


As I said... the issue of social media and the scuba industry is well worthy of discussion. There have been threads about tripadvisor here on the forum before...and it's an issue that every customer-serving business person needs to be aware of.

The issue with specific sites can be understood, but the wider implications - for example, the impact that has on Google search, often is not. If you look at the Google search for 'Red Sea Relax' (https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=red+sea+relax&btnG=Google+Search&meta=) you can see that their website is ranked 1 on the page. Following that is a bunch of links to tripadvisor. At the bottom, still on the 1st page of Google, is a link to this very thread.

Exactly the reason why their manager is such a poor one, his unprofessional email landed them on the front page of google, for all to see now. If the manager or the owner haven't figured out how important it is to act professionally in all matters, as I said "in business to always be the bigger man", landing on the front porch of google might help them understand why it's so important.

Most businesses spend a fortune to get their website onto the 1st page of a Google search. A 'virtual assassin' can get a damaging complaint into the same web-space with just a click of a button.

..or a customer with a legitimate complaint.

Not only does a bad report feature on an individual social media site - but it also haunts the business via search engine results. That's pretty catastrophic for a business - especially a tourism related one that relies heavily on internet traffic to produce bookings. Especially so as the Google 'clip' only shows a summary, or the first line/title of the review/thread etc.

Good customer service is essential to minimize instances of negative reviews. Most half-way competent business people can recognize that. But what of the instances where the complainant goes directly to social media... and neglects to give a business any chance to rectify a failing? What if the complainant isn't even a customer of the business concerned?

There seems to be an increasing trend to these 'virtual assassinations'. We see it on this board at least once per week. In most instances, the complainant/assassin has never bothered to make contact with the dive operation/target in order to voice their complaint in the 'traditional' way. More often than not, such complaints would be dealt with diplomatically and effectively by the businesses... but the 'assassination' strategy prevents that response.

What you're talking about is dependent on the situation. A problem involving money, billing, etc... usually involves a customer contacting the business to resolve the issue because the solution to the customer is a refund of some sort, which is only going to happen with direct contact with the business itself to try to get it resolved. The business has the opportunity to possibly deflect, lesson or even resolve and turn the problem into a raving customer.

However, when it's a 'review' there isn't necessarily ever going to be any attempt at contacting the business first to resolve something. The consumer is simply going to 'report' on their experience.

The latter isn't evil, slanderous or an attack, it's simply the way it is and businesses need to understand it and realize how important - here it comes again -- to act professionally in every contact with anyone interacting with your company. There simply is no guarantee anymore that hostile, sarcastic, childish behavior toward anyone interacting with your businesses isn't going to have ramifications. This thread is evidence of it in spades. Hence the importance to not fan flames with moronic actions such as sending an incendiary email when he could have just done nothing. And this is irregardless of it being the dive industry... Egypt... or whatever other qualifiers anybody wants to stick on the situation. It makes no difference, business is business, the results will be the same, consumers don't give a damn about what you deal with on a daily basis to run your business.


The question I ask is whether this new 'power' is raising the expectations of consumers - who, if so inclined, know they can stab a knife in the back of any business that fails to meet their rapidly expanding demands?

Does a business need to become paranoid that any inter-action, regardless how brief or inconsequential, with a customer or potential customer can turn into a financially damaging - possibly business ruining - virtual assassination?

It certainly does raise consumer's power, there is no way to deny it. Most of it is justified. Many, many businesses are run poorly. Believe it or not some even have managers who are so bad at their jobs they think nothing of writing a childish, sarcastic, taunting email to somebody without thinking about the consequences!

Your answer was to hire consultants and lawyers for protection. That is not within the scope of many business - especially in the scuba industry...and even more especially when such issues occur across international borders. So what is left to do? Pander to each and every unreasonable demand...tread on eggshells with every customer in case they are unstable and vindictive?

The simple solution is two-fold, possible and attainable for any business.

#1 Simply do a great job. This will take care of 99.99% of the problem. Hire and train the right people. Don't send emails to people taunting them, being sarcastic and nasty.

#2 If you do a great job, your positive reviews will dilute and greatly over-power the odd negative review. If you get a negative review address it professionally, apologize and explain your position. This allows the public to see that you care and judge how you handle problems. The vast majority of consumers realize that companies that do enough business will have a problem here or there. They don't care that you had a temporary issue, they care about how you handled it. They will put themselves in the place of reviewer and wonder if that happened to me, I liked the way you handled it or I don't like the way you handled it.

Look up Nordstrom, they are the pinnacle of customer service, renowned for it. However, even the shining example of Nordstrom has some poor reviews. Consumers realize this, they judge you on a whole, not on one bad review. They look for how you are trending, and understand you can't please all the people all the time.

This is simply the way it is, every business owner has to face these facts of the new information age and either embrace the solutions or swim up stream against them. The good thing is the system does work, truly bad businesses get exposed for what they are and truly great businesses get rewarded and ever business can complete on this even playing field, in the world of customer reviews, time will always level the playing field and reveal the trend and the truth about a business, a bad review be it justified or not is just a small minor hiccup in a good companies record.
 
Last edited:
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom