Cressi BC ??
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MaresMan1
Contributor
crosing
Contributor
... and I love it! Works great, simple to use. I don't think I would buy another BCD that did not have an AirTrim function.
MercutioATC
Contributor
"I'm sure that airtrims function well for puddle dives. However, that's hardly a test of their functionality. The real test comes when they are used for deep water technical dives."
What a bull****, elitist, DIR response. I'm sorry that I don't dive BP and wings...and I'm sorry that I don't feel that any technology more advanced than two rocks to bang together constitutes "multiple possible failure points".
MOST of us are not SAR or true deep water divers...and I think only an ass would generically classify us as "puddle divers".
Nope, I don't have nearly the diving experience you do, but that doesn't make my opinion invalid.
What a bull****, elitist, DIR response. I'm sorry that I don't dive BP and wings...and I'm sorry that I don't feel that any technology more advanced than two rocks to bang together constitutes "multiple possible failure points".
MOST of us are not SAR or true deep water divers...and I think only an ass would generically classify us as "puddle divers".
Nope, I don't have nearly the diving experience you do, but that doesn't make my opinion invalid.
Don't be sorry. There's certainly no need to apologize.
You are making unwarranted assumptions. I never mentioned DIR and I'm not a SAR diver (my team has helped a couple of police departments locate stuff sunk in lakes and quarries, but that doesn't make us SAR divers).
My point is that I have not observed, or read about, any technical dives being done using BC's equipped with an airtrim, whether by a DIR diver deep in a cave or by a traditional Jersey wreck guy who dives the Texas Tower solo.
The reason is simple. There are fewer things that can go wrong with a power inflator that is properly rigged than an airtrim. This is because an airtrim has more components. More components = more chance of failure. No amount of whining rhetoric is going to change this.
I'm sure that these things will work fine in non-overhead, shallow water, simply because the potential for damage when they malfunction is less. That doesn't really change anything.
I said it earlier. I really don't care what other people dive, so long as they are not on my team or in classes I'm working, since I can simply refuse to dive with them if I believe that their equipment is unsafe.
By the way, your allegation that I somehow fear technology is precisely the type of garbage that I'd expect from someone who needs to rely on an airtrim to compensate for inadequate buoyancy and trim skills. Technology is wonderful. However, using technology to increase complexity and the chance of failure in order to compensate for poor skills is not.
The airtrim is designed for use by divers who can't maintain proper trim and, therefore, cannot dump using a power inflator. The proper solution is to train the diver, not to compensate for poor or nonexistent skills by adding a new way for your life support system to fail.
MercutioATC
Contributor
I know you didn't mention DIR or SAR specifically. I do respect the opinions of technical divers and I do understand the whole multiple failure points thing. I wasn't trying to insinuate that you "fear" technology, just that this thing seems to be taken to extremes sometimes.
Cars have more complexity than legs, but I still drive.
To each his or her own. I just get tired of the members of the technical crowd who don't stop at "this is what I use and why", but go on to classify other equipment as inferior. I think it was the "puddle diving" thing that got me.
In an earlier post on this thread, I already stated that the flight control stub on the J-115 could present an entanglement hazard. I'm not representing the BC as perfect for all types of diving. I don't feel, however, that it's reasonable to extend this to mean that it's only good for "puddle dives".
You just hit a nerve with me...my problem. My post was more agressive than it needed to be, and for that I apologize.
Cars have more complexity than legs, but I still drive.
To each his or her own. I just get tired of the members of the technical crowd who don't stop at "this is what I use and why", but go on to classify other equipment as inferior. I think it was the "puddle diving" thing that got me.
In an earlier post on this thread, I already stated that the flight control stub on the J-115 could present an entanglement hazard. I'm not representing the BC as perfect for all types of diving. I don't feel, however, that it's reasonable to extend this to mean that it's only good for "puddle dives".
You just hit a nerve with me...my problem. My post was more agressive than it needed to be, and for that I apologize.
And I didn't intend to slam divers who prefer to execute shallower dives. I intended to state that the problems I perceive with the unit are less likely to manifest themselves on a shallower dive. Moreover, the consequences of a failure are less problematic.
Your car analogy is apt. However, its a good demonstration of what I was trying to say earlier. Originally, the technology embodied in a car is necessary in order to solve the problem of how to move faster and over longer distances than is possible using your legs.
Outside of diving, I'm a gadget freak. However, my life doesn't depend on those gadgets. In diving, it does.
I ask four questions when I see a new piece of dive gear. First, what problem is this designed to correct. Second, is the new piece of gear less risky than the whatever it is replacing. Third, what will be the effect of a failure of the new piece of gear upon my ability to safely execute the dive. Fourth, are there less risky methods of solving the perceived problem
IMHO, the airtrim is designed to make it easier to control buoyancy when the diver is not horizontal. It has more components than the power inflator it replaces and is, therefore, more likely to fail. A failure would require termination of the dive; however, the same is true of a bad power inflator. That said, it appears that dealing with an airtrim failure would be more annoying because it is not possible to reach the connection point while still wearing the rig (necessary in the event that it sticks on) or to trim out in a manner that minimizes air loss (necessary in the event that it fails while dumping). Finally, the problem can be corrected through training instead of a new device.
IMHO, the airtrim doesn't satisfy this analysis.
MaresMan1
Contributor
Let me begin by saying that I do respect NorthEast in a number of comments that he has made in other topics. Training, skills development and safe diving practices. A good diver should never stop learning, growing and improving.
However having said that, comments like these really make me cringe. You have no idea what this groups bouyancy skills are, yet you ass-u-me they require an Airtrim BC to compensate for inadequacies. So, then are you saying that the Airtrim series of BCs is better than the standard BC in aiding bouyancy control? No one else here made that claim.
Additionally, lets take the HUB (Dacor, Mares) out of the discussion, as they are more than Airtrim.
It does take time and practice to master bouyancy control skills regardles of the equipment. The Airtrim only assists by setting a fixed location (unlike the dangly hose) and quicker response. Mastery of the skill is still required.
I could make all kinds of negative statements abour BP/Ws if you want to talk about POF (loads of them there), but that wouldn't solve anything. You train and practice to avoid BP/W problems. What makes the Airtrim any different? Or is it that IS different and people are not used to it?
If you do not have any facts or experience to present, please do not make speculative negative comments. I do not think that you would teach your class on speculative information, so why do it here.
Don't worry, I won't be taking any of your classes
BTW, there is a kit to modify the backplate to support double tanks, FYI. I do not say this with any animosity towards NE. Let's just say that we agree to disagree on this subject.
Dive Smart, Dive safe
Enjoy the ride
:mean:
No. What I'm saying is that it is designed and marketed as a means to make buoyancy control easier. Whether it actually does this is another matter.
Agreed. They are the biggest joke in diving and should be given a prominent place in the Darwin Hall of Fame.
With one exception, I agree with your comments. My disagreement is your characterization of the traditional power inflator as a "dangly hose." It shouldn't dangle. My harness has a piece of bungee loop in the same place that the left D-ring attaches to the harness. The inflator and some of the elephant hose goes through the loop, leaving a few inches free to move. The inflator hose goes on the outside of the loop, essentially eliminating the chance that the loop could catch and disconnect the inflator hose.
My hose moves just enough to raise above my shoulder. It doesn't dangle anywhere.
I'd be interested in hearing them and that is not a joke. I'm not so confident that I'll say my rig is failure proof.
What are the points of failure on a standard Halcyon 55 lb Explorer wing with a SS BP and a continuous loop of webbing? Assume regular inspections and that redundant lift is provided by a drysuit. What is the proposed solutions?
My experience with airtrims has not been good. The most egregious example was a diver in a Dacor HUB who panicked and hit the elavator button. I grabbed him, hauled him down and tried to control him in the water. When he continued to panic, I stuffed my reg in his mouth (couldn't tell whether his reg was functioning properly and there is no way he was going to overbreathe mine), came behind him and tried to ascend him horizontally. In addition to the fact that it took me too much time to find the airtrim, I didn't like the way that the dump worked when the diver was horizontal. I also didn't like the fact that the diver was still able to reach the airtrim as he kept trying to take control and inflate his bladder.
This could be written off as a diver related problem. However, the other problem I have is that the system is mechanically more complicated than a power inflator, which increases the chance of failure. That is not speculation. That is a simple fact.
Don't worry, I won't be taking any of your classes
I do not say this with any animosity towards NE. Let's just say that we agree to disagree on this subject.
No worries or animosity here.
In the end, it comes down to this. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that an airtrim will kill you. Obviously, that's not true. However, even if there is only a one percent greater chance of failure with an airtrim than with a power inflator, is it worth the increase in convenience that the device supposely provides?
MaresMan1
Contributor
I can say that I agree with your comments in this reply. I can also understand your comments about your experience with a paniced diver. In a regular BC, you could have pulled his power inflator out of his reach.
At the same time you cannot judge a new BC design on one panicked diver. I am not saying that the Airtrim does not have additional concerns that most be looked at. All equipment has a learning curve that must be mastered. It's as true now as it was when people used diving bells and breathing tubes.
DiveOz, ScubaLab and BSAC have given the Airtrim the design of the decade in BC design in order to make the BC safer and easier to use (look it up us as I did). You not being familiar with it added to your anxiety. However, this is no different that any evolution in diving. The original aqualung was considered madness. I remember when a FFM was considered a death trap. Then it was rebreathers and then Split fins.
My point is that we must continue to grow and evolve and improve. If a design is truly flawed it will, by nature dissappear. If it's valid it becomes the norm. I like the airtrim because it is more streamlined and sets a standard that makes diving easier and more enjoyable for me. I would never go back to today's standard BC, as IMHO the Airtrim is superior and I have owned several standard BCs.
I totally respect your opinion and concerns, but it is not prudent to assess a new concept on one isolated bad experience.
A number of wholesalers are having trouble in keeping the Airtrims in stock; selling faster than they can order. Time will tell, but we had better grow to understand and deal with it while they are here. You cannot turn a blind eye to it.
Dive Smart, Dive Safe
Enjoy the ride
:mean:
At the same time you cannot judge a new BC design on one panicked diver. I am not saying that the Airtrim does not have additional concerns that most be looked at. All equipment has a learning curve that must be mastered. It's as true now as it was when people used diving bells and breathing tubes.
DiveOz, ScubaLab and BSAC have given the Airtrim the design of the decade in BC design in order to make the BC safer and easier to use (look it up us as I did). You not being familiar with it added to your anxiety. However, this is no different that any evolution in diving. The original aqualung was considered madness. I remember when a FFM was considered a death trap. Then it was rebreathers and then Split fins.
My point is that we must continue to grow and evolve and improve. If a design is truly flawed it will, by nature dissappear. If it's valid it becomes the norm. I like the airtrim because it is more streamlined and sets a standard that makes diving easier and more enjoyable for me. I would never go back to today's standard BC, as IMHO the Airtrim is superior and I have owned several standard BCs.
I totally respect your opinion and concerns, but it is not prudent to assess a new concept on one isolated bad experience.
A number of wholesalers are having trouble in keeping the Airtrims in stock; selling faster than they can order. Time will tell, but we had better grow to understand and deal with it while they are here. You cannot turn a blind eye to it.
Dive Smart, Dive Safe
Enjoy the ride
:mean:
