Creation vs. Evolution

[H2Andy]

Short answer--God doesn't like it when you show up early for appointments.

sandjeep's answer---God has given me life, I will not spit it back at Him and say no thanks.

that's what you believe. you have no way of confirming that is in fact the case, or
that God even exists.

i just think it's ironic that the people who are most sure they're going to heaven are the ones most loath to kill themselves.

 

[radinator]

(Never understood this stupid argument that just becuase you don't know something to a hundred decimal points that might be entirely wrong... Do they have the mass on the top quark down to more than 2 digits now? Maybe it just doesn't exist at all if they're so uncertain...)

I was on the original 1995 experiment that discovered the top quark, and as far as I know the mass is currently 171 +/- 2 GeV. Before it was discovered I had calculated (based on other particle interactions) that it had to be > 45 GeV but until it was discovered that was the best measurement we had for it.

Even just knowing a minimum mass of 45 GeV didn't mean it didn't exist.

I'm with you lamont. There does seem to be an epidemic of scientific illiteracy and innumeracy in the debate against science.

 

[sandjeep]

that's what you believe. you have no way of confirming that is in fact the case, or
that God even exists.

i just think it's ironic that the people who are most sure they're going to heaven are the ones most loath to kill themselves.

Based on my knowledge, God created me for His own reasons. To think any other way goes against what I know.

There's an interesting question, can animals self terminate as Humans can and do? I don't know, but I'm sure someone on this thread can answer.

 

[sandjeep]

What I mean by my above post is Do animals commit Suicide? Question to all.

 

[Kim]

What I mean by my above post is Do animals commit Suicide? Question to all.

Lemmings do....

Some might also argue that a sick whale that beaches itself does the same....

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

What I mean by my above post is Do animals commit Suicide? Question to all.

Lemmings apparently run off a cliff because they are in a frenzy and don't intentionally seek death, and sick whales are just that, sick and probably lost. Do animals that are seriously injured or ill go off and give up? Yes. Do they intentionally do things to terminate themselves? Unlikely.

Where in Christian dogma does it say that suicide is a sin? We are all taught that as Catholics, but I've read the gospels, where does Christ say that? I don't see it.

What about the soldier who throws himself on a grenade, or the fire fighter who rushes into a fire, or how about the Russian sailors who repaired a damaged reactor to save their crew members even knowing that their actions would lead to certain death?

Do they go to hell... and if not, why not? Please quote the appropriate Biblical passages that say suicide is a sin if done for personal anguish but OK if heroic.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

And speaking of hell and sin, question: what if we discover a gene for pedophilia, or for serial killing? We already know that certain mental illnesses, such as mania and schizophrenia, have a strong genetic component. We also know that much of our personality structure is determined at a very young age, suggesting that whether we are a "good" or "bad" person is inherited and beyond our control.

This isn't a problem for Hindus or Calvinists who view things fatalistically --- we are born to heaven or hell --- but for conventional Christianity, where heaven is a meritocracy, how would this work? A person born with a genetic tendency to murder compulsively wou;d be severely challenged in the after-life department.

perhaps that why fundamentalists reject so much of science: it is increasingly getting in the way of dogma... more theories spoiled by ugly facts

 

[MikeFerrara]

Where in Christian dogma does it say that suicide is a sin? We are all taught that as Catholics, but I've read the gospels, where does Christ say that? I don't see it.

The whole Bible says that suicide is wrong.
From http://christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y038.html

1. God has a great plan for your life. God has created us in His image (Genesis 1:26-27). He created us for a purpose. God has a specific plan in mind for everyone.
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)

2. God's plan is for life, not death. The Bible teaches that both physical and spiritual death are the result of our sin and disobedience to God, but eternal life is a gift to those who receive it.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

3. Jesus taught that death and destruction are the work of "the thief" (Satan). He said, "The thief comes only to steal and destroy;" (John 10:10). John 8:44 says that Satan is a "murderer" and the "father of lies". The feelings of despair that lead to suicide are caused by some of his lies.

4. Jesus wants us to have life. He said:

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
(John 10:10)

5. Life belongs to God. It is never our place to take our own life or someone else's life.

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

What about the soldier who throws himself on a grenade, or the fire fighter who rushes into a fire, or how about the Russian sailors who repaired a damaged reactor to save their crew members even knowing that their actions would lead to certain death?

Do they go to hell... and if not, why not? Please quote the appropriate Biblical passages that say suicide is a sin if done for personal anguish but OK if heroic.

John 15:13 "Greater Love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends."

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

I remain unconvinced. When Christ speaks of life in this context, he isn't speaking of corporeal existence but life in the Kingdom of God. None of the other quotes says anything about suicide at all. And if life is so precious, why lay it down for others? The bible is full of contradictions. I ask again, if we are to live according to the Old testament, why don't chrisitans follow the dietary restrictions outlined therein?

Most of modern Christian doctrine has been created post hoc and has no basis in Christ's teachings at all. Christ laid out few rules for behavior other than believe in him, love God and treat your neighbor with forgiveness and as you would like to be treated (of course, there's a loophole there too --- what if you like being beaten with a car antenna while handcuffed, is it then OK to do that to others???)

 

[MikeFerrara]

And speaking of hell and sin, question: what if we discover a gene for pedophilia, or for serial killing? We already know that certain mental illnesses, such as mania and schizophrenia, have a strong genetic component. We also know that much of our personality structure is determined at a very young age, suggesting that whether we are a "good" or "bad" person is inherited and beyond our control.

This isn't a problem for Hindus or Calvinists who view things fatalistically --- we are born to heaven or hell --- but for conventional Christianity, where heaven is a meritocracy, how would this work? A person born with a genetic tendency to murder compulsively wou;d be severely challenged in the after-life department.

You haven't been paying attention. Eternal life with God is not a meritocracy. It is a gift by grace and a result of becoming a child of God through spiritual rebirth. Jesus did all the earning for us.

I already have posted plenty of scripture as support so I'm not going to repost it.

perhaps that why fundamentalists reject so much of science: it is increasingly getting in the way of dogma... more theories spoiled by ugly facts

Science, in itself, does not prevent belief. Being of the world and unable to discern the things of the Spirit does...

1 Cor 2:14 "But the natural man does not recieve the things of the Sirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."