Creation vs. Evolution

[sandjeep]

there is a difference between giving your kids everything they want, and intentionally hurting them. the world could still be a "learning experience" without sickness, natural disasters, and birth defects.

So your saying that God is not doing things correctly? interesting.....

As far as suffering and hurting, please read what Mike F wrote concerning the bear trap.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

The notion that "someone" is responsible for the existence of matter is the truly primitive reaction of a primate brain. If there is a grand design, some Prime Mover or First Cause, it is far beyond the ability of the human intellect to comprehend.

I agree with Einstein when he said that the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that we may find it comprehensible...my own religious belief is that we have been endowed with symbolic/abstract reasoning to a degree that we CAN eventually know our origins, our creator so to speak, via intellectual/scientific endeavor. The endeavors of high energy physics, cosmology and molecular biology are beginning to touch the fringes of the interface between realtiy and the metaphysical. Today's science, to paraphrase Arthus C. Clarke, was yesterday's magic.

To turn our backs on science and rely on magical thinking, as creationists do, is to turn our backs on God's plan, not to embrace it.

 

[photohikedive]

So your saying that God is not doing things correctly? interesting.....

As far as suffering and hurting, please read what Mike F wrote concerning the bear trap.

I am saying there would seem to be a double standard, would your God approve of us treating our children in the same way?

as far as suggesting that one read someone else's post, please leave a link so they wouldn't have to go digging around in pages of circular (as in pizza) arguments.

 

[Kim]

Saw Kim's post this AM, but was off to work. The Bible does not state that the Earth is flat. Wherever did you hear that from?

LOL....I didn't say it did! What I said was that the Bible puts humanity at the center of creation. For many hundreds of years the church therefore believed that everything revolved around us...i.e. what they knew. The 'official' believers view was that the world was flat and everything revolved around it. Anyone who suggested otherwise was branded a heretic. We now know that whole idea was absurd. I just wonder what it will take in terms of proof for Creationists to see the absurdity of their 6000 year existence thing. For me it's on the same level of absurdity as believing in a flat Earth. Even now......with absolutely no evidence whatever....Creationists seem to believe in stuff like 'chosen people', 'saved people', 'damned people' etc. I don't see these attitudes as at all humble - actually I find the presumptions involved arrogant. I don't think for one moment that all Christians fit in this category. I also don't think for one moment that all Christians are Creationists. I DO think that any religion should be worn with a very gentle touch. It's hard to think of what has been more divisive in human history than different faiths. These days I think that religious leaders are actually very aware of this and at last the emphasis is beginning to be laid on unity of central principle....for instance love (which exists in most religions in one form or another), or simple tolerance for others (which is a fundamental starting block for love). Mike asked me a question earlier about whether I thought the US was actively trying to fulfill Biblical prophecy. I can't really answer it directly as it gets too political and therefore against the TOS. I do think though that ANYONE who draws lines of US & THEM is doing humanity a HUGE disservice. The division between different faiths and beliefs has already brought down buildings, both large and small, destroyed countless lives, sown hatred at a generational level...need I go on? THIS is the result of the seed WE'VE sown. It's here now and quite clear to see if you want to. Believing in illusions is really not without real cost. We need to start waking up and realizing that the buck stops here and WE have to fix this. Dodging the question by hiding behind faith is a cop out (IMO) that humanity has been using since the beginning. If it was going to work it's had a few thousand years to do so already. I see no evidence of that....on the contrary....I see LOT'S of evidence that it didn't work at all.

 

[sandjeep]

if the answer satisfies you, that's all that counts

to me, it reminds me of the old models of the solar system, trying to recreate the earth at the center. they had wheels within wheels within wheels tyring to make sense of it

that's a stretch and a lot of juggling when it can be explained by a simple error on "Luke's" part. he was using "Mark" as a source (that is certain), and he simply messed up where Mark reports the beggar sitting

in real life, no one would refer to an existing city and to a ruined city, even if next to each other, by the same name. you would say "he entered Jericho" meaning the existing city, "or he went to the ruins of Jericho" if meaning the old city.

by the way, the Hellenistic and New Testament Jericho was built 2 km from the ruined Jericho. by the time of Jesus, the "old" Jericho wasn't even a mound anymore. it was literally just some hills no one knew anything about.

it wasn't found until the 1930's

i sincerely doubt that the inhabittans of the new Jericho in AD 33 would have even known where the old Jericho was, destroyed as it was in 1550 BC.

(by the way, the archeological evidence is overwhelming that Jericho was destroyed a lot earlier than the first signs of Israelite presence in Palestine ... it was most likely a Hyksos city destroyed by the Egyptians)

Andy,
Would you post your informational source please concerning the work at the Jericho sites?
Thanks

 

[sandjeep]

Kim,
I will get back to you at a later time.
thanks

 

[Hank49]

The division between different faiths and beliefs has already brought down buildings, both large and small, destroyed countless lives, sown hatred at a generational level...need I go on? THIS is the result of the seed WE'VE sown. It's here now and quite clear to see if you want to. Believing in illusions is really not without real cost. We need to start waking up and realizing that the buck stops here and WE have to fix this. Dodging the question by hiding behind faith is a cop out (IMO) that humanity has been using since the beginning. If it was going to work it's had a few thousand years to do so already. I see no evidence of that....on the contrary....I see LOT'S of evidence that it didn't work at all.

The only thing we can believe in right now is some illusion or another. There's no proof of God, unless you choose to believe. There's no proof of the origin of the universe or what it even is, unless you choose to believe in what we think we know, which is minute.
And although heated arguments do arise from this debate, is it really the reason so may "buildings have been brought down", or wars started? Or was it just an excuse for people who wanted to topple buildings in the first place?

 

[Kim]

And although heated arguments do arise from this debate, is it really the reason so may "buildings have been brought down", or wars started? Or was it just an excuse for people who wanted to topple buildings in the first place?

People don't topple buildings just for fun.....there is genuine hatred involved (IMO). Again...this is a difficult area to comment on due to our politics rules but I think it's fair to say that hatred generally has a reason. I don't think people are born hating....it's acquired. Also IMO a principle place where it's acquired is during confrontations with others who think differently....very often because of what they believe qua religion. It's possibly a little 'chicken and egg', but it seems to me that if you didn't have the differences you wouldn't have the competition (if you can call war that...), without the loss of losing then hatred wouldn't be bred, and without the hatred probably less buildings would be brought down...whether big ones in some countries or many more small ones in others.
Sure there is an interconnection between religion and politics.....that's why the divisiveness of either is so dangerous IMO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

These days I think that religious leaders are actually very aware of this and at last the emphasis is beginning to be laid on unity of central principle....for instance love (which exists in most religions in one form or another), or simple tolerance for others (which is a fundamental starting block for love).

This is another topic maybe but what we often see today is religious leaders watering down their beliefes not for the good of mankind or any such noble purpose but rather to increase sales...to get more people in the door. If you say or do anything that someone might disagree with, you risk not closing the sale. Keep in mind that if we are going modify a belief system, we can do it for the purpose of avoiding trouble or in order to justify causing trouble. IMO, it's the people who want to change the rules that we need to watch really close. Don't trust the guy who wants to change the rules.

Mike asked me a question earlier about whether I thought the US was actively trying to fulfill Biblical prophecy. I can't really answer it directly as it gets too political and therefore against the TOS.

For the record, as the father of a US marine, I'm not happy. I don't know what the answer is but I am not happy with what's going on now.

I do think though that ANYONE who draws lines of US & THEM is doing humanity a HUGE disservice. The division between different faiths and beliefs has already brought down buildings, both large and small, destroyed countless lives, sown hatred at a generational level...need I go on?

There's more to it. We will always have "us" and "them". I don't agree with you but I'd really rather not get killed over it. It takes more to spur people to killing or being killed than a simple difference od opinion or belief.

I think there has to be something that one or both parties wants really bad. That could be money, power, land or whatever but it usually reduces to the same old things that people always want. It's just greed.

The next thing is an unhealthy dose of pride. One party has to think that their want is more important, that they somehow have a right to that possession.

People may use religion, politics or the phase of the moon as an excuse or justification but I don't think that it's often directly related to the real motive. Either way, the problem is the desire to pick the fight in the first place. If someone wants to fight, they are going to find a way to justify it.

Disagreements, debates and different points of view can be lots of fun. It's rarely a problem until we mix in greed and pride. You can have a fight with no religion or politics but I don't believe that it's possible to have a fight, ever, without greed or pride. Just FYI, the Bible lists pride right at the top of the list of things that God hates the most.

 

[Kim]

There's more to it. We will always have "us" and "them".

Then I have totally misunderstood Christ's teachings...(and several others...) For me (in rather simplistic terms) they come down to we are all the same...literally...THEREFORE we have not any reason to do anything except love each other. When your arm hates your leg there's a real problem......it's not supposed to be like that IMO.

Further....if we are really always going to have us and them I'd have to doubt if anyone has understood anything ever.......