Creation vs. Evolution

[kidspot]

oh, i can't take credit for them ... i found them on an internet site ... i can't seem to find it again ... well, i'll keep an eye out for it

this guy's site was better than most. he didnt' go for the "dumb" contradictions that can be resolved with just a little thought

yeah - sometimes they are just "sillyisms" if I can coin a word ... but the ones you cited are "good" imo. One of my favorites is the parallel passages from Mark and Luke dealing with blind Bartimaeus - Mark says they met him as they left the city of Jericho, while Luke says it was while approaching the city of Jericho ...

Mark 10:46
And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging.

compared with:

Luke 18:35
And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:

First time I came across this it stumped me - I was teaching a childrens class on this passage - spent nearly all day and finally came to the following conclusion.

Mark was writing primarily to a Jewish audience, Luke to a predominantly Greek audience (Theopholus). The destruction of the city of Jericho (as recorded in Joshua 6) was a landmark event in Jewish history - a matter of national pride, if you will. However the city was rebuilt by Hiel during the days of Ahab (as recorded in 1 Kings 16:34)

The city however was not built on the original site, but right next to the ruins of the old city (pictures of the tell remaining from the old city can be found easily in most Bible encyclopedias) This new city became a center of commerce for the region, especially for travelling merchants. This was "possibly" an attempt to avoid the curse Joshua placed upon the city in Joshua 6:26... alas Hiel suffered for his attempt anyway in I Kings 16:34 (it cost him the lives of his eldest and youngest sons)

Thus when Mark wrote to a Jewish audience the city he referenced was the old city, and Luke writing to a Greek audience would cite the new city. Bartimaeus sat, literally at the exit of one and the entrance of the other.

So now I look for these apparent contradictions and study them out - sometimes I find the answer, sometimes it eludes me, but I've found them often enough I now assume I'm the one missing information, not the other way around ... just my approach by "faith"

Which btw - I do not believe in "blind" faith. I believe faith has a basis in what God has done in the past, and a belief that He will be the same in the future. Thus my sig line (not the monthly dive - the "other one" lol) ... now if I only lived it out as much as I desire

Aloha, Tim

 

[AXL72]

Eh? Go to Italy and try some. Some people complain that it's too thin and liquid-y. If anything, it's American pizza that's dry, usually because it has a really thick crust.

oh, zingtea...that is cause u never had any Chicago pizza. U need to get to chicago for the pizza, the itallian beef, and the vienna polish...mmmmm

 

[AXL72]

i must agree. one of Christianity's teachings is that just because you are saved (one of the chosen) that doesn't mean you aren't going to suffer

quite an inevitable teaching, since that's what happens every day all around us

if Christianity were to teach otherwise, it wouldn't last a decade

what gets me is that you have an all-Powerful God who could in one instant cease all the suffering and hunger in the world. i mean, he is all-powerful, and yet he decides, every single second of every single hour of every single day, of every single week of every single month of every single year of every single decade of every single century for the past 6,000 years not to do it.

since he is all powerful he certainly can (or he wouldn't be all powerful), which means

he doesn't want to do it

wow... and this God wants me to worship him?

Andy you got it all wrong. God has priorities. For example, answering the prayers of someone asking for a raise at work or answering the prayers of an NFL coach for the team to win is much more important than prayers to end cancer, AIDS, end the cutting off of limbs of africans in the way of diamond mind owners, child porn, prostituting chicldrens, and other atrocities.

The other side of the coin is that there are too many prayer requests being made. I am sure someone from scubaboard has asked God to show us all a sign that creation is the one and only answer. Maybe that is the problem. You know how you call into a radio station to win concert tickets or a motorcycle and the lines are so busy....u get the weird ring town that indicates all circuits are busy. I think that is the way with prayer. Too many selfich christians tieing up the prayer lines with frivolous, selfish gimme gimme prayers, which cause all the important prayers from ever getting through to God.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Handicapping children by not teaching "God's revelations..."

A "monster of all possible holes in education."

Yes. I believe that. I'm sorry if that bothers you.

No Buddhist parents are shoving the Bible down their kids' throats. You are.

No I'm not. I've never even met a Buddhist child as far as I know. How could you accuse me of such a thing?

You seem to believe that because you've found whatever solace you have in a book that the rest of the world is somehow lacking because we don't "get it" and should.

That's just not true. I have found solace in God and I believe that you should do what you think best.

Stop looking at this as something that is a failing in other people.

Sounds like a command.

If I go to hell because I don't follow the same path you have. Why do you care? Why does anybody care?

I don't see how it fits into the conversation but I care because I don't think Hell is a nice place and I don't think you'd like it.

Yes, this is a sensitive subject for me because my whole life people, like you, have tried to make me feel inferior and somehow sub-standard because I'm not a Christian.

People like me? What did I say that made you feel inferior?

Guess what, I don't care that you are, can you concede to the fact that I don't have to believe any specific doctrine to not be threat to society and anyone else's way of life?

If you tell me that you aren't a threat, I will believe you.

Freedom of religion is a great concept, as long as you're a Christian. If you're not you see every day the pervasiveness of the Christian doctrine. You don't see it because they're on your team. I see it because I'm not and it's gotten worse over time.

I see quit a bit but I guess I don't see it the same way that you do.

Do you know why the Pledge of Allegiance isn't said in school anymore? All those unpatriotic people out there in the ACLU asking to have it removed because it's considered prayer in school? The country is going to hell and the kids can't even express a little bit of patriotism because those damn liberals won't let them? Here's a bit of history for anyone who cares. The Pledge didn't not used to contain the phrase "under God." It was "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Now the pledge isn't said at all. Thanks, Christians!!

Well, I was not involved in either changing or the outlawing the Pledge of Allegiance so don't thank me. In fact, I don't know anyone who was involved. I know that you're going to find this almost impossible to believe but they didn't even ask me before they did it! I give up, who did it? Who says we have to listen to the ACLU? I wonder what d the ACLU says about money? I'll bet they like it well enough. You really think the country is going to "hell" because Christians changed the Pledge of Allegiance causing the ACLU to get it outlawed? You wouldn't want to be a little more specific about exactly how that works would you?

Oh, and I'm not even going to get into missionary work. Pretty audacious of all the missionaries out there to go into fully functioning "heathen" societies and tell them they're doing it all wrong.

You already did get into it. You're the one who brought it up. Is this your answer to my question asking who it was who rebelled (or however you worded it) against missionary work? You are the one who doesn't approve? How do those being ministered to feel about it? Does that enter into it? I've only had a little contact with missionaries and those they minister to but my impressions are different than yours.

They don't usually capture people and tie them up to force them to listen as far as I know. Missionaries give them an oportunity that they otherwise wouldn't have had. Often, they do it at great personal cost and risk too.

Gods word speaks for itself to those who have been given ears to hear. Those who have, are thankful for the gift. You'll probably really hate me now but I've been trying to figure out a way to get away from my business for awhile so I can teach farriery and maybe some blacksmithing at a new trade school in Nicaragua founded by...you guessed it...a Christian missionary. You think that's a fully functioning society there? I probably won't be able to make it work but I think I'll move away from the window anyway. LOL

I will say this, the pastor that did the service for my ex-husband's grandmother's funeral was a Lutheran. He mentioned in passing that he had worked in Hawaii. I said something on the order of "That don't suck" and he responded that it was a tough job because of all the pagans. I walked away. I'm not built to be able to combat that kind of sheer global ignorance.

Did you object to his terminology or the work that he did? Do you know anything about his work? Again, how did those on the recieving end feel about it? Did you ask any questions? Why did you treat him with such rudeness?

And so it goes that I retire from this thread. I've said what I have to say, I've contributed what I feel I've had to contribute and frankly if I keep hanging around I'm just going to get p****d off.

 

[H2Andy]

Thus when Mark wrote to a Jewish audience the city he referenced was the old city, and Luke writing to a Greek audience would cite the new city. Bartimaeus sat, literally at the exit of one and the entrance of the other.

if the answer satisfies you, that's all that counts

to me, it reminds me of the old models of the solar system, trying to recreate the earth at the center. they had wheels within wheels within wheels tyring to make sense of it

that's a stretch and a lot of juggling when it can be explained by a simple error on "Luke's" part. he was using "Mark" as a source (that is certain), and he simply messed up where Mark reports the beggar sitting

in real life, no one would refer to an existing city and to a ruined city, even if next to each other, by the same name. you would say "he entered Jericho" meaning the existing city, "or he went to the ruins of Jericho" if meaning the old city.

by the way, the Hellenistic and New Testament Jericho was built 2 km from the ruined Jericho. by the time of Jesus, the "old" Jericho wasn't even a mound anymore. it was literally just some hills no one knew anything about.

it wasn't found until the 1930's

i sincerely doubt that the inhabittans of the new Jericho in AD 33 would have even known where the old Jericho was, destroyed as it was in 1550 BC.

(by the way, the archeological evidence is overwhelming that Jericho was destroyed a lot earlier than the first signs of Israelite presence in Palestine ... it was most likely a Hyksos city destroyed by the Egyptians)

 

[Tassie_Rohan]

1) Can any mod out there tell me which post in the history of the board has had the most counts? Excluding chat threads and word association games...

2) Anyone keen to bet a case of beer that this thread will soon eclipse all other serious threads in terms of length?

Cheers,
Rohan

 

[Kim]

1) I'm not sure - we actually have no way of checking more than you do (maybe the actual Administrators can....)
I should imagine that this one might be in the running though....

2) Why would anyone want to lose a perfectly good case of beer?

 

[sandjeep]

Sorry, for the late post, as my work takes me far into the field these next couple of months.

don't recall anything in the Bible that says that the world is flat. In fact, The Bible seems to teach a spherical shape for the earth. Look at Luke 17:34–36 for example.

Saw Kim's post this AM, but was off to work. The Bible does not state that the Earth is flat. Wherever did you hear that from?

In either case the Bible is not an astronomy text. I would also be careful about using policies of the Roman church as an indication of what the Bible actually says. Similarly, I'd caution against excepting the arguement of the "skeptics" without further study because they are notorious for taking small sections of Biblical text out of context, placing it in their own context and using it to make points completely unrelated to any intended point of the Bible. While many of the arguements seem sound on their own, in most cases, a simple reading of the text in context renders the arguements absolutely laughable.

Agree completely and would add that if one is really interested, to obtain a Greek/Hebrew word study guide and a copy of Strong's Concordance. It is rather a fascinating subject.

I'm not actually "up on" what "creationists" are argueing for in regard to text book useage in schools.

Here you go Mike. The case from Cobb County, GA that had evolutionists screaming Church and State.

The evolution disclaimers read: “This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.”


Andy said

now, you are entitled to BELIEVE that is the case, but you certainly can't offer any proof thereof.

What Proof would really convince you?

If God has given us free will as I and others have said than clearly he keeps a balance between keeping His existence evident so people will find Him, and hidden so that one can ignore Him.

The Choice is up to you.

Andy said this as well

what gets me is that you have an all-Powerful God who could in one instant cease all the suffering and hunger in the world. i mean, he is all-powerful, and yet he decides, every single second of every single hour of every single day, of every single week of every single month of every single year of every single decade of every single century for the past 6,000 years not to do it.

since he is all powerful he certainly can (or he wouldn't be all powerful), which means

he doesn't want to do it

wow... and this God wants me to worship him?

Your statement sounds alot like Epicurus. If you raised your Children by giving them everything they desired, then what would be the outcome? (Not sure if you have children or not) If you do, do they get everything their way and when they want it? Are they taught self reliance?


Clevelanddiver said

Reading your earlier quote it states something to the effect that one can only get to heaven through Jesus. If a good person does not accept Jesus, they are unable to get into heaven.

I said this. No one, but no one gets to the Father except through Jesus.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now before you question, as others have who Jesus was, allow me to quote CS Lewis, because he put it very clearly.

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

To recap, you are saying if my actions do not follow your beliefs, I am damned. You say God judges by his standards, not ours, yet somehow you claim to know his standards.

What I am saying is that all men will be judged based on God's standards not mine. Will you be found guilty by God? Have you been a good person in the eyes of God? Have you ever lied or stolen something, no matter how small. Only one ever met this standard, as it is very high. I have not. I was once what some have called an enemy of God. Sin was my first, last, and middle name. I took pleasure in attacking Christian views and used arguments much like the ones I read here. Stupid, uneducated, narrow minded Christians who believed in some supreme being and Jesus. Given a choice I would have locked them all away in the crazy house.

So, are you guilty of violating God's standard for goodness, as you put it. As I said, I sure am. When I stand before Him to be judged, I will be guilty. However, the sentence will not be imposed on me because I have asked for and accepted the forgiveness offered by Jesus. No other religion makes this statement.

God's standards are clearly written in the Bible, but it's not just about rules. You must read the entire book for it to be understood. If your really interested, attend a non-denominational church in your area that teaches directly from the Bible.

I will attempt to address other posts I have read, but while friends will be diving this weekend, I will be working...sigh

 

[photohikedive]

Andy said this as well
Quote:

what gets me is that you have an all-Powerful God who could in one instant cease all the suffering and hunger in the world. i mean, he is all-powerful, and yet he decides, every single second of every single hour of every single day, of every single week of every single month of every single year of every single decade of every single century for the past 6,000 years not to do it.

since he is all powerful he certainly can (or he wouldn't be all powerful), which means

he doesn't want to do it

wow... and this God wants me to worship him?

Your statement sounds alot like Epicurus. If you raised your Children by giving them everything they desired, then what would be the outcome? (Not sure if you have children or not) If you do, do they get everything their way and when they want it? Are they taught self reliance?

there is a difference between giving your kids everything they want, and intentionally hurting them. the world could still be a "learning experience" without sickness, natural disasters, and birth defects.

 

[sandjeep]

Coach_izzy said,

I do not go around your place knocking your doors and telling you that you're blind and brainwashed, because I DO NOT care what you believe in.

Question, why are you posting on this thread if thats what you think. I have not knocked on your door and told you your brainwashed. Have you read what I wrote in context or are you just venting?