Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

but the lawyer didn't have the benefit of that (no New Testament at the time).

he just had the Jewish scriptures and what Jesus said.

he was told to do these two things and he'd have everlasting life

right?

either Jesus meant it, or he was lying to the lawyer

Yes he had the Old Testament which includes Isaiah where we find that our rightiousness is as filthy rags to God and the telling of the comming of the one who would be bruised for our iniquities, the other profits, Proverbs and Psalms. We read that there is none righteous. We see that those who were favored by God had faith (some of the time), were obedient (some of the time) and had personal relationships with God. Most, if not all, failed to have perfect faith or to be completely obedient... Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon and so on and were in need of God's grace. If we put it all together, what does it mean to love God with all of your heart?

But hey, for the sake of arguement, lets say that all you have to do is to love your neighbor as yourself. Do you? All of them? Always? I don't.

 

[H2Andy]

that is the goal

Jesus did say to the woman "go and sin no more."

now, if that isn't possible, why say it?

in this case, he said "love thy neighbor as yourself."

if that isn't possible, why say it?

in both cases, i believe it is the "trying" that counts. you have to keep on trying even if you fail. Jesus gave them goals to strive for. it is the striving that counts, in his eyes, having the right goals, heading in the right direction, that sort of thing.

and it all has to do with ACTION. stop doing bad things. do good things. treat others like equals.

when you say, ok, those are my goals, you are doing God's work.

if you depart from that action, you are not doing God's work

 

[MikeFerrara]

that is the goal

Jesus did say to the woman "go and sin no more."

now, if that isn't possible, why say it?

in this case, he said "love thy neighbor as yourself."

if that isn't possible, why say it?

in both cases, i believe it is the "trying" that counts. you have to keep on trying even if you fail. Jesus gave them goals to strive for. it is the striving that counts, in his eyes, having the right goals, heading in the right direction, that sort of thing.

and it all has to do with ACTION. stop doing bad things. do good things. treat others like equals.

when you say, ok, those are my goals, you are doing God's work.

if you depart from that action, you are not doing God's work

I think I understand your point of view but I don't think it's based on scripture, or at least not very much of the scripture.

God's standard isn't a goal. It's a do or do not do. Since sin entered the world we are unable to do and we all are deserving of punishment for it. Jesus didn't lower the standard, he raised it when he said that anger or lust is as murder or adultery (my paraphrasing). Our default condition is spiritually dead in sin. Trying to sort of be a good person doesn't fit the description of being spiritually reborn. John 3:3 "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." and John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." 1 John 1:10 "If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." Isaiah 64:6 " But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. Psalm 14, Psalm 53 and Ecclesiastes 7:20 All say things to the effect of what Ecclesiastes 7:20 says "For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin." We can find just as many (or more) references to the comming of the messiah, starting in Genesis.

I find absolutely nothing that says that it's ok as long as we try. Trying only counts if we have faith in Jesus to take up the slack and intercede on our behalf. Psalm 51:17 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and contrite heart-These, O God, You will not dispise." Thinking that we are somehow entitled to something because of our feable attempts is not having a broken spirit and contrite heart.

The Old Testament and the New Testament combined lay out a salvation plan that is totally, absolutely 100% dependant on Jesus to do it for us.

 

[H2Andy]

God's standard isn't a goal. It's a do or do not do.

so Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more knowing she was doomed to fail, since no human being can be free of sin?

and he told the lawyer to love his neighbor as himself knowing he was doomed to fail, since no human being can follow this mandate 100% of the time?

sort of a pointless excercise for the woman and the lawyer, dont' you think?
in fact, quite cruel ... why tell them to go do something they possible can't do?

why would Jesus mislead them that way?

well, he wasn't misleading them. the only interpretation that makes sense is that Jesus was interested in them TRYING to follow his mandate, knowing that they would not succeed all the time

thus, it's a goal Jesus is talking about. otherwise, he makes no sense and comes across as a somwhat sadistic figure.

note that to neither the woman nor the lawyer Jesus says anything about having faith in Jesus or being a christian, or going to church, or giving money or any of that.

he just says, "go and sin no more"

and to the lawyer, "do this and you shall have everlasting life."

where does Jesus say anything to them about faith in Jesus or any of that stuff?
it's not an issue. doesn't even come up.

so, again, the question is, did Jesus mislead these two folks, or are you reading things into his words that simply aren't there?

honestly now, if you were the lawyer, after having that conversation with Jesus, what would YOU think you had to do to find everlasting life?

well ... love God and love thy neighbor. that's it.

that's all Jesus told him to do.

i don't think you are grasping my point, but i've said it so many times, that i am just going to shut up. if i can't show you what i mean by now, it ain't gonna happen

 

[The Chairman]

Good tree - good fruit. Words certainly aren't enough but our actions aren't enough either.

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. NIV

Sorry Mike, the Bible seems to disagree with your hypothesis.

 

[Hank49]

Hank, the good in it is that God Himself provides the payment and the means that we are unable to provide.

Any "terror" is something that you are reading into it. Abraham already knew that he could absolutely trust God. The very fact that Isaac was born was proof of that. Abraham had already made the mistake of not trusting God (Hagar and Ishmael) and seems to have learned from it.

I've thought about that post I made all day Mike and I hoped I hadn't offended you. I respect your beliefs and do not mean to ridicule them.
What kept popping into my mind was, how did Abraham know it was God talking to him? Would anyone today know God or Jesus if they tried to get a message to one of us in the same manner? That's why I am so taken aback by the fact that a man would have murdered his own son based on what he believed God told him, even though he trusted Him that everything was going to turn out OK. Imagine if a man did that today. He'd be locked up, and rightfully so.
And as awap said, which occured to me today also, is this mentality any different than that of the suicide bombers in the Middle East?

 

[redacted]

What kept popping into my mind was, how did Abraham know it was God talking to him? Would anyone today know God or Jesus if they tried to get a message to one of us in the same manner?

Today, if you killed your child (or anyone else) because god told you to do it, you would likely spend the rest of your life in an institution for the mentally insane or prison. This is a bit scary.

 

[MikeFerrara]

so Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more knowing she was doomed to fail, since no human being can be free of sin?

and he told the lawyer to love his neighbor as himself knowing he was doomed to fail, since no human being can follow this mandate 100% of the time?

sort of a pointless excercise for the woman and the lawyer, dont' you think?
in fact, quite cruel ... why tell them to go do something they possible can't do?

why would Jesus mislead them that way?

well, he wasn't misleading them. the only interpretation that makes sense is that Jesus was interested in them TRYING to follow his mandate, knowing that they would not succeed all the time

thus, it's a goal Jesus is talking about. otherwise, he makes no sense and comes across as a somwhat sadistic figure.

note that to neither the woman nor the lawyer Jesus says anything about having faith in Jesus or being a christian, or going to church, or giving money or any of that.

he just says, "go and sin no more"

and to the lawyer, "do this and you shall have everlasting life."

where does Jesus say anything to them about faith in Jesus or any of that stuff?
it's not an issue. doesn't even come up.

so, again, the question is, did Jesus mislead these two folks, or are you reading things into his words that simply aren't there?

honestly now, if you were the lawyer, after having that conversation with Jesus, what would YOU think you had to do to find everlasting life?

well ... love God and love thy neighbor. that's it.

that's all Jesus told him to do.

i don't think you are grasping my point, but i've said it so many times, that i am just going to shut up. if i can't show you what i mean by now, it ain't gonna happen

I do understand your point. The women and the lawyer weren't reading the Bible but rather had only a few isolated sentances spoken to them. Your point is that what was said to them was either true or it wasn't.


Jesus had a lot to say but the two of them or any other single individual may not have been around long enough to get all of it. He gave the desciples a little at a time and even they didn't completely get it until after pentecost. Maybe that was to be the beginning of their spiritual life and education? In any case, I don't think we should forget the Holy Spirit.

 

[MikeFerrara]

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. NIV

Sorry Mike, the Bible seems to disagree with your hypothesis.

Yes and James 2:19, 20 says "You Believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble. But do you want to know, O foolish man that faith without works is dead?

So we have demons that believe and the possibility for dead faith. What then? Certainly the demons aren't saved. Do we earn salvation by our works?

Ephesians 2:8, 9 says "For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any one should boast.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."...John 6:48 "I am the bread of life" John 6:53 "Most assuradly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." John 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him."

2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things become new.

We don't buy salvation with works. Salvation is a gift by grace (Jesus having paid the penalty for the sin of those who are saved). By the same token, the save will desire to do good works.

I probably could have put that together better but I tried.

 

[photohikedive]

I have a little analogy.......

you buy a clock, and when you put the battery in it, you say "as long as you keep time, you will be in my favor. if you choose to stop, I will smash you"

well, of course, other than that talking to a clock this is rediculous. you know that eventually the battery will die. is it fair to punish the clock?