Creation vs. Evolution

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hank49:
That is a tough one. I forget the man's name who God told to kill his own son to show his love to God....but that's too much. I'd have to say, "sorry God". That would really piss me off, to tell you the truth.

I think that's an understandable reaction. Trusting in your own knowledge of what you think is right and best, you just refuse to do it. Abraham trusted God more than himself. On the way to where this was to take place, Isaac asked his father where the lamb for the sacrifice was. Abraham responded by telling him that God would provide for Himself the lamb. Genesis 22:7, 8

When Abraham had his son bound and the fire ready and reached for the knife the Angel of the Lord stopped Abraham. Abraham looked up and there was a ram caught in a thicket and the ram is what was offered. Genesis 22:12,13

Gesesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, "In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided."

Genesis 22:18 "In your seed all nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice".

Obviously Abraham demonstrated his faith in God and his obedience but this is also a picture/example of substitution and what was to come. The seed of Abraham is the Jews. At least part of how all nations of the earth would be blessed through the seed of Abraham is Jesus. Jesus, who's sacrifice on the cross would serve as payment for our sins. Jesus is the lamb (the last one needed) who is substituted for all. Again, God provided the lamb.
 
aquaboy35:
If we are all "God's children" then why are there Holy Wars? Quite frankly, while I believe everybody is entitled to their beliefs, I feel that religion is the opiate of the masses.
The idea that "everyone in entitled to their beliefs," is provocatively addressed by
Sam Harris who wrote:

Science Must Destroy Religion

Most people believe that the Creator of the universe wrote (or dictated) one of their books. Unfortunately, there are many books that pretend to divine authorship, and each makes incompatible claims about how we all must live. Despite the ecumenical efforts of many well-intentioned people, these irreconcilable religious commitments still inspire an appalling amount of human conflict.

In response to this situation, most sensible people advocate something called "religious tolerance." While religious tolerance is surely better than religious war, tolerance is not without its liabilities. Our fear of provoking religious hatred has rendered us incapable of criticizing ideas that are now patently absurd and increasingly maladaptive. It has also obliged us to lie to ourselves — repeatedly and at the highest levels — about the compatibility between religious faith and scientific rationality.

The conflict between religion and science is inherent and (very nearly) zero-sum. The success of science often comes at the expense of religious dogma; the maintenance of religious dogma always comes at the expense of science. It is time we conceded a basic fact of human discourse: either a person has good reasons for what he believes, or he does not. When a person has good reasons, his beliefs contribute to our growing understanding of the world. We need not distinguish between "hard" and "soft" science here, or between science and other evidence-based disciplines like history. There happen to be very good reasons to believe that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. Consequently, the idea that the Egyptians actually did it lacks credibility. Every sane human being recognizes that to rely merely upon "faith" to decide specific questions of historical fact would be both idiotic and grotesque — that is, until the conversation turns to the origin of books like the bible and the Koran, to the resurrection of Jesus, to Muhammad's conversation with the angel Gabriel, or to any of the other hallowed travesties that still crowd the altar of human ignorance.

Science, in the broadest sense, includes all reasonable claims to knowledge about ourselves and the world. If there were good reasons to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, these beliefs would necessarily form part of our rational description of the universe. Faith is nothing more than the license that religious people give one another to believe such propositions when reasons fail. The difference between science and religion is the difference between a willingness to dispassionately consider new evidence and new arguments, and a passionate unwillingness to do so. The distinction could not be more obvious, or more consequential, and yet it is everywhere elided, even in the ivory tower.

Religion is fast growing incompatible with the emergence of a global, civil society. Religious faith — faith that there is a God who cares what name he is called, that one of our books is infallible, that Jesus is coming back to earth to judge the living and the dead, that Muslim martyrs go straight to Paradise, etc. — is on the wrong side of an escalating war of ideas. The difference between science and religion is the difference between a genuine openness to fruits of human inquiry in the 21st century, and a premature closure to such inquiry as a matter of principle. I believe that the antagonism between reason and faith will only grow more pervasive and intractable in the coming years. Iron Age beliefs — about God, the soul, sin, free will, etc. — continue to impede medical research and distort public policy. The possibility that we could elect a U.S. President who takes biblical prophesy seriously is real and terrifying; the likelihood that we will one day confront Islamists armed with nuclear or biological weapons is also terrifying, and it is increasing by the day. We are doing very little, at the level of our intellectual discourse, to prevent such possibilities. 

In the spirit of religious tolerance, most scientists are keeping silent when they should be blasting the hideous fantasies of a prior age with all the facts at their disposal.

To win this war of ideas, scientists and other rational people will need to find new ways of talking about ethics and spiritual experience. The distinction between science and religion is not a matter of excluding our ethical intuitions and non-ordinary states of consciousness from our conversation about the world; it is a matter of our being rigorous about what is reasonable to conclude on their basis. We must find ways of meeting our emotional needs that do not require the abject embrace of the preposterous. We must learn to invoke the power of ritual and to mark those transitions in every human life that demand profundity — birth, marriage, death, etc. — without lying to ourselves about the nature of reality.

I am hopeful that the necessary transformation in our thinking will come about as our scientific understanding of ourselves matures. When we find reliable ways to make human beings more loving, less fearful, and genuinely enraptured by the fact of our appearance in the cosmos, we will have no need for divisive religious myths. Only then will the practice of raising our children to believe that they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu be broadly recognized as the ludicrous obscenity that it is. And only then will we stand a chance of healing the deepest and most dangerous fractures in our world.
 
H2Andy:
exactly right

how does one love God? by loving people

No. While a love for God will result in the choice to love people, not everyone who loves people loves God or even believes that He exists.

Love for God is expressed to God through faith, worship (acknowledge His greatness and worth) and prayer/study (fellowship with God).
 
Science must destroy religion... I'll try to do my part:

An international team of molecular biologists has explained the mechanism which allows cells of Deinococcus radiodurans bacteria to resurrect from the state of cellular clinical death. Half of the eight team members are scientists from Croatia: dr. Zahradka, dr. Petranovic and dr. Slade, including their team leader - dr. Miroslav Radman, researcher at french Paris-Descartes university.

Discovered only 50 years ago, Deinococcus radiodurans bacteria has adapted to living in extreme conditions. It can survive in the desert sands or on the stones under bright sunlight. No other organism can live in such an environment due to extreme dehydration and heavy exposure to UV rays. This bacteria can endure the effects of radiation 5000 times larger than what's lethal to human.

Through this research, dr. Radman and colleagues have explained the molecular mechanism of cellular self-repair which allows Deinococcus radiodurans bacteria to "survive death". Extreme radiation and dehydration tear up the DNA of any cell to pieces, which means death to most cells. Yet, through evolutio,n the Deinococcus radiodurans bacteria has developed the ability to patch up its entire torn DNA in a correct order which has so far been a scientific mystery.

The work of dr. Radman and his team on this subject has been going on for a several years and it will be published on October 5th in a science magazine Nature.

link to the original story: Rudjer Boskovic Institute, Zagreb (Yes, it's in Croatian, I had to translate this story myself. :D )

So, the science is able to explain how something dead can come to life!
 
lamont:
well, photons have zero rest mass, so in that sense they are 'pure energy'

ah yes, good point

i would like, again, to clarify that this stuff is interesting to me, but i am not by any means well versed in it.
 
MikeFerrara:
Love for God is expressed to God through faith, worship (acknowledge His greatness and worth) and prayer/study (fellowship with God).

Jesus said that there was one commandment:

love God above all else and love your neighbor as yourself

my position is that to love God means to love your neighbor. everything else is empty ritual and lip service.
 
mislav:
So, the science is able to explain how something dead can come to life!
OK...cool....

So now it just has to explain how something can come to life that didn't exist to start with....;)

Which brings us back to the original question......evolution or creation? :D

In the end everyone knows the answer so I wouldn't sweat it really.....:eyebrow:
 
MikeFerrara:
No. While a love for God will result in the choice to love people, not everyone who loves people loves God or even believes that He exists.

Love for God is expressed to God through faith, worship (acknowledge His greatness and worth) and prayer/study (fellowship with God).

Sounds to me like religion is evolving. It's quite obvious that much diversity and even some competition currently exists in this area.
 
Rick Murchison:
The lack of time prior to the big bang is consistent with Einstein's theory of relativity. In its simplest form, when gravity is great enough that the escape velocity exceeds the speed of light, time halts. This is a "black hole." Nothing that we can even imagine can happen in there because there is no time, and all things that "happen" have beginning and ending points that require the passage of time. And since time can't pass with the mass of the universe all in one massive knot, there's no way to have a big bang...
Or, put another way, the acceptance of the big bang is a matter of faith, ultimately...
as are all postulations of things "happening" once that critical time stopping mass is reached.
:D
Now, for a little fun with relativity... if I could develop an engine big enough that it could drive my space ship with a thrust-to-mass ratio of 1 indefinitely, not counting the couple of trips around earth needed to break orbit, how much time would pass in my ship on a trip to Betelgeuse (approx 427 light years from here)? If I started my deceleration so as to arrive there at zero speed, and then made the round trip back to Earth, about how much older would I be than when I left? Approximately what year would it be when I got back?
Suppose I wanted to go to Rigel instead (about 800 light years away)...
Rick

Can you define "time"?
 
MikeFerrara:
I think that's an understandable reaction. Trusting in your own knowledge of what you think is right and best, you just refuse to do it. Abraham trusted God more than himself. On the way to where this was to take place, Isaac asked his father where the lamb for the sacrifice was. Abraham responded by telling him that God would provide for Himself the lamb. Genesis 22:7, 8

When Abraham had his son bound and the fire ready and reached for the knife the Angel of the Lord stopped Abraham. Abraham looked up and there was a ram caught in a thicket and the ram is what was offered. Genesis 22:12,13

Gesesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, "In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided."

Genesis 22:18 "In your seed all nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice".

Obviously Abraham demonstrated his faith in God and his obedience but this is also a picture/example of substitution and what was to come. The seed of Abraham is the Jews. At least part of how all nations of the earth would be blessed through the seed of Abraham is Jesus. Jesus, who's sacrifice on the cross would serve as payment for our sins. Jesus is the lamb (the last one needed) who is substituted for all. Again, God provided the lamb.

It's a nice story but I don't see anything good in it. If God asked you to do the same, would you do it? I can't even think about it. Seeing the terror in my son's eyes....no fricken way.
Any "God" who would demand this demonstration of faith isn't mentally solid in my book and I wouldn't worship Him. It's Jim Jones like.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom