Creation vs. Evolution

[Otter]

While I try not to let religion (human created) interfere with my faith, I see no conflict between Evolution created/controlled by God as a means of achieving God's goals.

 

[lamont]

Ok, you lost me. These two statements are diametrically opposed. I think that's akin to tearing a hole in the time-space "thingy." I think's that is a violation of the prime directive.

No, I can get along fine with people who have Faith. I found no really substantial issue with this quote:

"Science's tools will never prove or disprove God's existence. For me the fundamental answers about the meaning of life come not from science but from a consideraton of the origins of our uniquely human sense of right and wrong, and from the historical record of Christ's life on Earth" --Francis Collins, Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute (Time Magazine 9/15/05).

I agree completely with the first sentence. And in particular because the second sentence starts with "for me..." I have no real issue with it either. I will not deny someone else however they choose to determine the human sense of right and wrong as long as they return the favor.

I do get *very* annoyed when Christians believe that Christ has a monopoly or morality and ethics, or even that Religion is necessary for morality and ethics -- but I won't deny them pulling out their morality from Christ's teachings since generally he seemed to be a guy with half a clue. I get touchy when people start pulling all kinds of garbage morality out of the Bible (most of which seem to violate Christ's core teachings), but that's a problem at a higher level.

And I have no real issue with someone believing in Christ even though there's a chance the entire historical record was completely fabricated. You see I don't believe in the objective ontological existance of right and wrong or good and evil, but believe they are vitally important concepts to human beings. That means that we all must come to our own construction of them and I don't deny anyone how they construct them. The means are largely irrelevant if I think the ends are sound, because I think all means are on equally lousy footing.

I do have a bit of a problem with people who think the bible is completely infallable and try to prove the virgin birth and Christ's ressurection as being historically accurate. I tend to think that those are just silly and obviously a result of a mistranslation in the first case, and mythology in the second. But, if an otherwise well-meaning Christian that I agree with about basic morality believes in the virgin birth and ressurection its not a terribly important point of fact to me. It's about on par with people who like Microsoft Windows (nearly all of you are in for a surprise when you die becuase God uses FreeBSD)... Most of my problem with the virgin birth and the ressurection people are that it tends to correlate with other very narrow views of morality and ethics that I find abhorrent -- and some of them think the world was created 6000 years ago and man walked with the dinosaurs and that's actually fairly ignorant in my view...

I'm actually not really sure if this is addressing the point that my perspective is inconsistent... Basically I think science and questions of fact (which I consider Evolution and the Big Bang) to be complete seperate from religion. And when it comes to morality and ethics I recognize that they necessarily start with subjective axioms (e.g. there is nothing inherantly, provably wrong with a completely selfish almost solipsistic view of morality -- but I disagree with it vigorously). If someone choses to pin their morality and ethics on the teaching of christ (historical or mythological, it doesn't matter) but we otherwise get along it ain't a big deal. My views are influenced somewhat by Taoism and somewhat by Utilitarianism and a lot by making **** up as I go along, and if they're compatible with someone else's it works for me...

 

[lamont]

Dude, you've been working too hard! Fly out to North Carolina and go diving with me on some of the wrecks offshore!
On a good day, it's world class...

I've got plenty of spare sets of doubles. Spent the last couple days diving, heck, it's cheaper than therapy!

Give it some thought!

U-boats? =)

BTW, I'm currently mixing alcohol and water... =)

 

[AXL72]

Interesting facts:

The British boat captain, who was assigned to taxi Darwin around the world on a British sailing vessel, committed suicide after Darwin published his theory of evolution as a result of the trip, due to all the harm the Captain percieved was caused to religion with his perceived help. I wonder if the Captain made it to heaven in light of his suicide?

Did you all know that Darwin was sea sick the whole time he was on the ship. Imagine the time to cross the Atlantic!!....TWICE!!!!

Anyway, I am not saying whether I believe in Evolution or Creation. Just wanted to offer some interesting related facts that don't attack anyone's views on this thread.

 

[AXL72]

Uh, Lamont, ...I mix Scotch and water...

They taste great together!

I tried mixing water with water and asking Jesus to turn one of the waters into scotch. I am still waiting. I think God and JC were a bit upset about the request.

It did give me something to confess in the confessional. After 20 "Our Fathers" and 15 "Hail Marry's" I think we are back on speaking terms. Father Baseheart was not amused. Have to mend that relationship.

 

[OE2X]

*** MOD POST***
Keep The Insults Off The Board. If you can't do so then you will be removed and this thread will disappear.
*** END MOD POST ***

 

[AXL72]

Matthew 18:5
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Yes sir, Thalassamania, you are in trouble now! Now where are we going to get a millstone?

 

[fire_diver]

I do get *very* annoyed when Christians believe that Christ has a monopoly or morality and ethics, or even that Religion is necessary for morality and ethics

NO, religion is not needed for morality, but all true religions are based upon morality and ethics.

And I have no real issue with someone believing in Christ even though there's a chance the entire historical record was completely fabricated. You see I don't believe in the objective ontological existance of right and wrong or good and evil, but believe they are vitally important concepts to human beings. That means that we all must come to our own construction of them and I don't deny anyone how they construct them. The means are largely irrelevant if I think the ends are sound, because I think all means are on equally lousy footing.

Even though I am a Christian, I agree with your statement. If the whole thing is a lie, and there is no God..... it still gave me an ideal to strive for and helped me lead a better life.

I'm actually not really sure if this is addressing the point that my perspective is inconsistent... Basically I think science and questions of fact (which I consider Evolution and the Big Bang) to be complete seperate from religion.

Mabye I had missread your statement, or maybe you typed it wrong, but the inconsistancy I saw what this. statment one said (and I'm paraphrasing here) 'don't be so black and white that you leave no room for a mixed view.' Then statement two said 'keep your black and white seperate, and never let the two mix.'

FD

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Maybe I had missread your statement, or maybe you typed it wrong, but the inconsistancy I saw was this. statment one said (and I'm paraphrasing here) 'don't be so black and white that you leave no room for a mixed view.' Then statement two said 'keep your black and white seperate, and never let the two mix.'

Lamont's post may have suffered from some epistemological inadequacies, however, he'd been diving all day, he was no doubt fatigued, and most likely was still off-gassing nitrogen! So any sins, venal or otherwise, must be forgiven!

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree completely with the first sentence. And in particular because the second sentence starts with "for me..." I have no real issue with it either. I will not deny someone else however they choose to determine the human sense of right and wrong as long as they return the favor.

Surely if God exists, He gets to decide what is right and what is wrong.

I do get *very* annoyed when Christians believe that Christ has a monopoly or morality and ethics, or even that Religion is necessary for morality and ethics -- but I won't deny them pulling out their morality from Christ's teachings since generally he seemed to be a guy with half a clue. I get touchy when people start pulling all kinds of garbage morality out of the Bible (most of which seem to violate Christ's core teachings), but that's a problem at a higher level.

What is "garbage morality" and who says it's garbage?

Again, if there is a God, certainly he does have a monopoly on morality and ethics. Continueing that thought with the my assumption that God exists, religion isn't necessary in order to have morality and ethics but knowledge of God is necessary to know what God says is moral. The Bible is full of examples of what happens when man decides for himself what is right. An ongoing theme in the Bible is the difference between mans ways and God's ways and between mans wisdom and God's. The Bible lists pride high on the list of things that God hates the most.

And I have no real issue with someone believing in Christ even though there's a chance the entire historical record was completely fabricated. You see I don't believe in the objective ontological existance of right and wrong or good and evil, but believe they are vitally important concepts to human beings. That means that we all must come to our own construction of them and I don't deny anyone how they construct them. The means are largely irrelevant if I think the ends are sound, because I think all means are on equally lousy footing.

I do have a bit of a problem with people who think the bible is completely infallable and try to prove the virgin birth and Christ's ressurection as being historically accurate. I tend to think that those are just silly and obviously a result of a mistranslation in the first case, and mythology in the second.

I think, it's only hard for you to believe because you don't believe there is a God. It's easy for me to believe because I believe there is a God.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.' "Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

But, if an otherwise well-meaning Christian that I agree with about basic morality believes in the virgin birth and ressurection its not a terribly important point of fact to me. It's about on par with people who like Microsoft Windows (nearly all of you are in for a surprise when you die becuase God uses FreeBSD)... Most of my problem with the virgin birth and the ressurection people are that it tends to correlate with other very narrow views of morality and ethics that I find abhorrent -- and some of them think the world was created 6000 years ago and man walked with the dinosaurs and that's actually fairly ignorant in my view...

How do you define "well meaning" and why is it important they agree with you?

The flip side of course is that I don't believe that either you or I are wise enough to decide what is moral or ethical.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, But it's end is the way of death."