Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

quite the contrary. if it's the wrong world view, we need to know as soon as possible

i don't fear being wrong. do you?

Well I guess I am afraid of being wrong (I try to minimize it) but that doesn't stop it from happening. I just don't see what chimp DNA would have to do with a persons world view.

But really Andy, here I offer some scientific articles for discussion for my own education and in the spirit of the thread and we get a dig from Thal about a bronze age world view.

Besides, I'm a blacksmith and even something of a blade smith (means I use alloyed steels) which puts me solidly into and beyond the iron age!

 

[H2Andy]

Well I guess I am afraid of being wrong (I try to minimize it) but that doesn't stop it from happening. I just don't see what chimp DNA would have to do with a persons world view.

if we can show that there is no evolutionary explanation for the (for lack of a better word) "evolution" of life on Earth, that would make me look up to the sky mighty fast.

as for the posters on this thread, sometimes a few of us have crossed the line. i think in the end we all care deeply about these issues, so we're bound to let emotion creep in

btw, when the brown stuff hits the fan, i'd rather be a blacksmith than a lawyer

 

[pterantula]

I went looking for scientific facts that might help explain why people are so very different from chimps when I keep hearing how close we are genetically.

So far, I've seen nothing presented to prove that we are in fact "so different" from chimps. That may sound silly and baiting, but I really don't see all of these supposed differences that you blithely assume. (And don't say "because they're hairy and live in trees and we wear Nikes and drive BMWs" - that's pretty lame.) Physically and socially, we're pretty darn similar; an adult chimp is alarmingly close to being a very strong, very hairy, relatively intellectually retarded human.

(And don't say "I know I'm no chimp/monkey/etc.", since that's about as valid as me saying "I know I'm a Venusian".)

Anyway, back to my heathening (it takes all day, don'tcha know).......

 

[MikeFerrara]

their entire article boils down to this:

In other words, the proportion of different proteins was 80%, in contrast to the 1-2% difference at the nucleotide level. How these differences are related to the morphological differences is unclear at present, but it is quite possible that a large proportion of phenotypic differences are caused by a relatively small number of regulatory mutations (King and Wilson, 1975) or major effect genes (Nei, 1987).

Got it.

DNA is not a protein. it is a nucleic acid (well, a long polymer of nucleotides)

Got that too but isn't it the proteins that do the actual work?

genetic material is passed along by DNA, not by proteins

Yes but then there's the function of the proteins.

they conclude (surprise!) that proteins have nothing to do with genetic differences
(genotypes) but that they may be responsible for phenotype differences (i.e. appearance).

they are answering the question: how come if chimps and humans are so closely related genetically do they look so difference?

answer: a possible answer is that our proteins are different, and thus we look different.

From you know where
The phenotype of an individual organism is either its total physical appearance and constitution or a specific manifestation of a trait, such as size, eye color, or behavior that varies between individuals. Phenotype is determined to some extent by genotype, or by the identity of the alleles that an individual carries at one or more positions on the chromosomes.

I think smarts would have something to do with behavior so it's more than looking different.

(as far as i know, no one has ever argued that chimps and humans are similar at the protein level ... but i am afraid regulatory mutations are way above my head)

Your right. All I heard is the 2 percent DNA difference until I went looking. Again, my only point is that people and chimps don't seem to me to be 98% the same. Maybe are DNA is but not in all respects (each gene) and it isn't used the same. The result is that we are VERY different (we can't even make mules together like horses and donkeys can...which I already knew. LOL That would explain why we can sit around and argue this stuff and they are happy just sitting there flinging chit.

On another note...they don't seem to know why some of those "genetic" differences evolved that way. I read where one scientist theorized (in relation to the HAR1 gene)that it might because we cook our food. I'll let yall make up your own minds on that one. Look out if chimps ever start cooking their banannas.

 

[H2Andy]

i'm sorry... i edited my post to try to clear up a misereading i made

as you pointed out, i skipped over the role of proteins in the equation

 

[MikeFerrara]

if we can show that there is no evolutionary explanation for the (for lack of a better word) "evolution" of life on Earth, that would make me look up to the sky mighty fast.

Evolution or not, there's a God as far I'm concerned. What may be at stake is my understanding of the first couple of chapters.

as for the posters on this thread, sometimes a few of us have crossed the line. i think in the end we all care deeply about these issues, so we're bound to let emotion creep in

Understood and I promise to not hold a grudge and I hope everyone else extends the same courtesy.

btw, when the brown stuff hits the fan, i'd rather be a blacksmith than a lawyer

Why? If that happens, there might not be any electric and the lights in my shop won't work. LOL

[/QUOTE]

 

[MikeFerrara]

So far, I've seen nothing presented to prove that we are in fact "so different" from chimps. That may sound silly and baiting, but I really don't see all of these supposed differences that you blithely assume. (And don't say "because they're hairy and live in trees

Aren't they hairy and live in trees?

and we wear Nikes and drive BMWs"

Well I wear walmart tenies and drive a dodge

- that's pretty lame.)

Sorry a dodge is all I could afford.

Physically and socially, we're pretty darn similar; an adult chimp is alarmingly close to being a very strong, very hairy, relatively intellectually retarded human.

Really? What kind of truck does he drive? I wonder if we can get his opinion on the recent midterm elections. I'm a little worried about tax time comming up here so if you know a chimp who knows a good accountant have him give me a call or shoot me an email.

(And don't say "I know I'm no chimp/monkey/etc.", since that's about as valid as me saying "I know I'm a Venusian".)

I'm not a chimp or a monkey and yes I can provide scientific evidence of that as well as a birth certificate, drivers license, lots of scube certifications, voter registration and even a credit card if I have to.

Anyway, back to my heathening (it takes all day, don'tcha know).......

Happy heathening.

 

[pterantula]

Really? What kind of truck does he drive? I wonder if we can get his opinion on the recent midterm elections. I'm a little worried about tax tome comming up here so if you know a chimp who knows a good accountant have him give me a call or shoot me an email.

I'm not a chimp or a monkey and yes I can provide scientific evidence of that as well as a birth certificate, voter registration and even a credit card if I have to.

Exactly the argument I had anticipated in my post. Pretty much to the letter. I see you really like that argument, so I'll let you have at it and get back to my spurious heathening.

 

[MikeFerrara]

(this article, published last year, failed to generate much interest since ... quite obviously ... didn't really amount to anything -- they end up concluding what was already concluded back in the 70's and 80's)

Well, I didn't see it until today. I was way to busy for stuff like this in the 70's and
80's.

 

[H2Andy]

oh, believe me, i didn't know about that article 'til you brought it up

i just did some searches to try to find responses to it, and couldn't find any, other
than links back to the studies it sites