Creation vs. Evolution

[JeffG]

That is an oxymoron. The fundamental principle of Christianity is love. What ever it calls itself, if it is not characterized by love, then it isn't Christianity. The previous inquisitions were not Christian... they were all about those in power maintaining power.

To bad history has taught us that people don't follow the dictionary meaning of things then.

At any rate, what is called the Christian Fundamentalist movement seems to be losing its bid to ascend to power so I don't think you have to worry about any inquisitions coming from that quarter.

Thats the dangerous part. They lose using the rules set forth by the republic, then its time to use other means. Maybe thats when they will take up arms then?

 

[Uncle Pug]

talk about a nice way to distance yourself from your faith's past errors.

Andy... really... if it isn't love it isn't Christian no matter what it calls itself.

You are aligning me with a religious system that was antithetical to my faith. In fact, if I would have been in the docket during the inquisition as a heretic because of my faith.

Association with the inquisition is an oft repeated and sad slur against Christians... but it was Christians of faith who were the target of the inquisitions.

 

[H2Andy]

Pug, my point is that the Inquisition is part of Christian history

it is what the religion is capable of, based on its inherent teachings of absolute right and absolute wrong

you can't just claim that the Inquisition had nothing to do with Christianity. it was made possible precisely because of the nature of Christianity

sorry, if you're a Christian, that is your past too

a past you guys wish had never happened? sure

a past you guys hope will never happen again? sure

but it's still your past, and it's your history

 

[Thalassamania]

So, in this thread there appears to be some mocking going on... making fun of religious belief and even counting people worthless because of their belief. That is as I would expect... but let it never be the case that those who say they believe in Jesus denigrate others who do not.
(If I have slipped in that regard I apologize.)

I have seen little mocking of religion or belief, per se, but there have been pointed barbs poked into stupidity (as represented by lack or knowledge or comprehension, not belief) and illogical thought. I'll grant you that if you're on the receiving end it may not always be easy for you to tell the difference, but trust me, it is there. Consider it from our end for a moment, it is as though we say, "binary 1101 equals 13" and you say, not it's not it's eleven hundred and one. And we say, "binary is a base two system which works just like the normal decimal system but there are only two symbols: 0 and 1. Start at the "ones" with 0, and go up to 1. Woops ... out of symbols, so to have a greater value, put a "1" in the "twos" place, like you would in the "tens" place in the normal decimal system, and so on to the "fours" place, the "eights: place, etc. Got it?

And back comes the answer, "1011 is eleven hundred and one."

And we explain some more, "... 1101 is the same as 8+4+0+1 = 13 in base 10. Got it?"

And back comes the answer, "1011 is eleven hundred and one."

And we explain again and again and again, and the answer keeps coming back "eleven hundred and one" and what's more, "I know that's correct because my math book is the inspired word of God."

That may be hard for you to see, but it is, I think, a fairly clear representation of how we perceive the discussion.

 

[mislav]

I'm sure everyone saw this one coming:

There are only 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm sure everyone saw this one coming:

There are only 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who don't.

"1010" kinds of people? Really? <G>

 

[Rick Murchison]

Really and truly, there *are* only two kinds of people...
There are those who divide people into two kinds, and there are those who do not.
Rick

 

[adurso]

Really and truly, there *are* only two kinds of people...
There are those who divide people into two kinds, and there are those who do not.
Rick

There is an amount of defensiveness on "both" sides, perhaps. It is difficult to judge the tone of a written conversation without the body language that goes along with a face to face conversation. What is perceived as an attack on personal, religious beliefs may be a true desire to learn. Many religious people really, really believe it is their duty to set people on the path to salvation, even if the other party wants no part of salvation. So the salvors come across, in writing, as knuckle dragging luddites. Scientific type folks have a difficult time understanding why others do not understand what is perfectly intuitive to the scientific types. This creates frustration on both sides.

My sense of humor does not translate well into writing. Readers often cannot tell when I am, allegedly, being funny, as opposed to mocking, or unpleasant.

I teach in a hard core christian area. I am not a christian, strike one. Part of what I teach relates to human behavior, to understand human behavior, one must be somewhat familiar with the development of homo sapiens, thus evolution, strike two. (And as andy pointed out, apparently I do not speak english, strike three)

With many other scientific type folks I am horrified at the thought of non-science being taught to children. This is where much of the defensiveness and frustration in conversation comes into play. We have a difficult enough time encouraging critical thought amongst students. Placing everything upon the shoulders of a supreme deity is an excuse to abandon the quest for knowledge.

Rick, you quote Heinlein in your signature; are you familiar with his "Future History" series, particularly a character named "Nemiah Scudder" (I may have misspelled this).

This character takes over the US, stopping scientific research in its tracks. The US falls into a technologically barren dark age.

This is the fear many scientists have...

I personally believe religion is a good thing; organized religion creates a framework for living a life according to principles that society approves of. Most organized religions stress good works, ethical behavior, moral behavior, love of fellow man and all of that nice stuff that society strives for, but may fall short of.

My problem comes into play when someone insists I subscribe to THEIR belief system. I become further agitated when the possibility exists that I may, sometime in the future, be expected to not only subscribe to that belief system, but teach it as science.

Personally I believe no one posting on a regular basis here means any harm to another. I believe that all are sincere in their beliefs and efforts to educate others no matter what perspectives are espoused.

If I have offended anyone with my feeble attempts at humor, I apologize most sincerely, I do not mock the religious beliefs of others intentionally, and if I have caused offense in this regard, again it was unintentional.

I have found this thread to be quite interesting reading, frightening at times, but also stimulating for my students to see as well. Hopefully it will continue.

Or I may be utterly wrong as my written language skills may coincide with poor reading skills as well.

 

[H2Andy]

Really and truly, there *are* only two kinds of people...
There are those who divide people into two kinds, and there are those who do not.
Rick

man, i gotta agree with that

 

[Uncle Pug]

Consider it from our end for a moment

Having been on your end, I do take that into consideration.

I also understand the fear some have expressed about the Fundamental Evangelical movement's bid for political and social power and all that goes with that. Personally I think a great many Christians have been led astray by an earthly/temporal agenda and away from Faith, Hope and Love.

I am grieved more by that than I am by those who do not believe by far!

************
Here is something I've been wondering about, though we are specifically not permitted to talk about it on SB since it involves politics:

What is the political disposition of those responding in this thread? I think it would be very interesting and even produce some surprises.

Again, I'm not suggesting that we talk about it because that is definitely against the TOS.