Creation vs. Evolution

[The Chairman]

does this mean that the Bible was writen by men, and that at any one given time, what we get written down as "scripture" is those men's views of God, which may or may not be accurate? or perhaps accurate as to the underlying teaching or meaning, but not accurate as to its specific details?

if the answer is yes, I agree with you. if the answer is no, i have no clue what you just said

The Bible never claims to be "inerrent", though many Christians assume that it does. The Bible never claims to be ONLY the word of God, though God has many of his words recorded there. While this may be seen as heresy to some (OK, to many), until such time as someone can produce for me scriptures that explicitly contradict those beliefs, I will continue in them. It does claim that "prophecy of Scriptures" are inspired by God and that ALL Scripture is useful for a variety of things, but not that it is inerrent.

Most forget that true Christianity is a "revealed faith". No amount of study or personal navel gazing will lead you to God and his love. Letting God's love control your actions is the only way that you can realise what the "next step" is. Seeing God's love in action is truely inspirational and is how Jesus told us to do things. Too many Christians have exchanged one set of rules for another one. It is for FREEDOM we have been set free from all rules and regulations except for one: To love each other, just as Christ loved us.

To read any of the scriptures outside of the historical context is to miss their real beauty. Take the scripture that says it's harder for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of heaven. Many see this as a howling condemnation of the rich. It's not. Back then (as now in some sects), many thought that God gave riches to the faithful. This is why the Apostles asked, "Who then can be saved?" If the people they assumed were being blessed by God weren't going to make it, then who on earth could? Jesus was trying to turn them from focusing on the PHYSICAL and on to the SPIRITUAL.

 

[H2Andy]

To read any of the scriptures outside of the historical context is to miss their real beauty.

i agree. my favorite parts of the Bible is the early Pauline letters. you can see a lot of suffering and hope with the early Christians ... many of whom were convinced (given what they had been told Jesus said) that the second coming would be imminent.

anway, that's my favorite time of Christianity, before we (yes, i say we) got big and powerful and started ignoring the basics

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

..... so tell that to the Jesuits. I'd say they tend to do as good as the next.

You may be right, but my impression is that "religious" universities tend to be less indoctrinating than religious elementary and secondary schools. And the Jesuits, as an Order, have never been famous historically for their open-mindedness.

If any religion or school really taught people to think critically, I doubt there would be many people separating dairy and meat on separate dishes, abstaining from meat on Good Friday or avoiding pork for metaphysical reasons. People who think critically wouldn't believe some Supreme Being actually cares about what we stuff into our mouths.

For those interested in critical thinking, check out the Skeptical Inquirer, a monthly magazine dedicated to debunking things like the Shroud of Turin, Bigfoot, the Bermuda Triangle, and so on.

 

[adurso]

You may be right, but my impression is that "religious" universities tend to be less indoctrinating than religious elementary and secondary schools. And the Jesuits, as an Order, have never been famous historically for their open-mindedness.

If any religion or school really taught people to think critically, I doubt there would be many people separating dairy and meat on separate dishes, abstaining from meat on Good Friday or avoiding pork for metaphysical reasons. People who think critically wouldn't believe some Supreme Being actually cares about what we stuff into our mouths.

For those interested in critical thinking, check out the Skeptical Inquirer, a monthly magazine dedicated to debunking things like the Shroud of Turin, Bigfoot, the Bermuda Triangle, and so on.

As a product of a Jesuit school I must point out that the Jesuits tend to be at the forefront of religious orders in the critical thinking area, recently that is, historically speaking. Or it may have been my experience in the 70s only. The jesuits that trained me taught me to question everything.....

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

As a product of a Jesuit school I must point out that the Jesuits tend to be at the forefront of religious orders in the critical thinking area, recently that is, historically speaking. Or it may have been my experience in the 70s only. The jesuits that trained me taught me to question everything.....

Even God? Even Christ? I find it hard to believe that they taught you to question everything, but, again, I always entertain the possibility of being utterly and totally wrong.

Would that the Church were so open during the Inquisition.

 

[TCDiver1]

Even God? Even Christ? I find it hard to believe that they taught you to question everything, but, again, I always entertain the possibility of being utterly and totally wrong.

I'm not a Jesuit, nor was i educated by them but it's my understanding that in general, they offer a university education based on the fundamental values of academic excellence, leadership, service and faith. None of those thing have to be mutually exclusive with the other IMO, including faith.

I can't seem to find anything wrong or lacking in using an approach like that to educate young minds. It's certainly not for everyone but inferring that Jesuit training is lacking because it has a strong faith component seems rather short-sighted and arrogant to me.

But hey, that's just me. I could be wrong.

 

[adurso]

Even God? Even Christ? I find it hard to believe that they taught you to question everything, but, again, I always entertain the possibility of being utterly and totally wrong.

Would that the Church were so open during the Inquisition.

Yes. If you have only been exposed to other teaching orders you would be shocked at how far the jesuitical method goes in the face of Catholic Dogma. I was a science major and was pleasantly surprised by the lack of religion brought into science classes. Now we were required to take 3 religion and 3 philosophy classes which did indeed question faith based writings of several religions. I am not, and was not a christian, in a catholic school. I was never offended nor inculcated with catholic dogma, but I did learn a great deal about modern theology.....as I mentioned this was the 70s and I could be misremembering....

 

[agilis]

In defence of the Jesuits, it should be pointed out that they were remarkably successful in containing the spread of Protestantism. This alone is reason enough to venerate the memory of Loyola and Xavier. The Inquisition was not as bad or as violent as frequently portrayed. Those guys were just trying to do the right thing. It wasn't at all like Monty Python.

As far as the progressive anti-authoritarianism and intellectual openness of Jesuits is concerned, I remember the leading role played by many Jesuits in the Latin American liberation theology movement, and in the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War. Fr. Berrigan is an excellent example. Jesuits who taught me when I was in high school frequently stressed the doctrine of Primacy of Conscience, and many were, at heart, free thinkers. They were strongly attached to the Roman Church as an institution, a position I can fully understand. As James Joyce so eloquently explained in 'Portrait of an Artist', Roman Catholicism and Protestantism differ in that the former is essentially an internally logical, consistent and structured absurdity; the latter is an illogical, inconsistent, and frequently unstructured absurdity.

It was a Jesuit who introduced me to Joyce when I was 14, and who delighted in that comparison. Perhaps he was only being Jesuitical.

 

[adurso]

In defence of the Jesuits, it should be pointed out that they were remarkably successful in containing the spread of Protestantism. This alone is reason enough to venerate the memory of Loyola and Xavier. The Inquisition was not as bad or as violent as frequently portrayed. Those guys were just trying to do the right thing. It wasn't at all like Monty Python.

As far as the progressive anti-authoritarianism and intellectual openness of Jesuits is concerned, I remember the leading role played by many Jesuits in the Latin American liberation theology movement, and in the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War. Fr. Berrigan is an excellent example. Jesuits who taught me when I was in high school frequently stressed the doctrine of Primacy of Conscience, and many were, at heart, free thinkers. They were strongly attached to the Roman Church as an institution, a position I can fully understand. As James Joyce so eloquently explained in 'Portrait of an Artist', Roman Catholicism and Protestantism differ in that the former is essentially an internally logical, consistent and structured absurdity; the latter is an illogical, inconsistent, and frequently unstructured absurdity.

It was a Jesuit who introduced me to Joyce when I was 14, and who delighted in that comparison. Perhaps he was only being Jesuitical.

Yet at the same time as Fr. Berrigan was protesting the war, many of the catholic chaplains I met in the military were Jesuits...they are a militant order after all...

 

[sandjeep]

shakeybrainsurgeon,

As for neanderthals, consider the books The neanderthal legacy (Mellars 1995) or In Search of neanderthals (Stringer and Gamble)... you can pull up a couple thousand references from Google Scholar from major sources, example: Nature 404:490 (2000) describing the first extraction of DNA from neanderthal remains. Anyone who questions the coexistence of neanderthals and homo sapiens for a time in Western Europe is stretching the whole "we need to question science" mantra to absurdity.

It really depends on who and what the so-called Neanderthal’s are. Were they a different species as some claim or human after all? Is this extraction repeatable and the results the same every time? Seems like you might need to do some questioning.

As for the old "I don't have kids so why pay school taxes", I say fine, don't pay school taxes, …snip..

When evolution is taught as fact and the public has very little right to change it, I would call it something else. Please explain what the origins of life has to do with throttle body injection. As I’ve said, the study of science is fine, until you step over that line dealing with origins.

As for being a non-denominational Christian, not a Catholic, I reiterate my earlier posts: you are about one-percent away from Catholic. Do you believe in Christ? the resurrection? Read the new testament? Accept the cross as a symbol? believe in the ultimate return of Christ? Who do you think nurtured these concepts and kept them alive for 15 centuries through the persecution and ignorance of early Europe?

I’m sorry but I strongly disagree with your statements and will not be baited into a debate against different denominations.