Creation vs. Evolution

[AXL72]

hahaha...ok ok, fair enough.

I believe ya, Mike.

You know the best part of scuba diving is that we cannot hear our oppinions underwater. We would get along great underwater.

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So, not to change the subject or nothing, but how many more posts do you all think will be made on this thread?

Amazing and good that a scuba diving forum would have such heartfelt oppinion in other araes of life voiced (typed), eh.

 

[sandjeep]

Interesting AXL72,

Let me ask you a series of questions. In fact, let me pose these to other evolutionists as well. Of course, anyone who has followed this thread is aware that I am one of those Christian Fundamental extremists, which is defined by me as being someone who believes the Bible is 100% God's words.

Here it is written very clear by my church,

The Bible is God's Word to all men. It was written by human authors under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.

II Timothy 3:16-17, II Peter 1:20-21, II Timothy 1:13, Psalm 119:105,160, Psalm 12:6, Proverbs 30:5

Now, since I believe what is written in the Bible, I do not believe in the evolution of man. I believe that man was created by God to have a relationship with Him period.

BUT, just for the sake of exploring this, say I did believe that Darwin and others were right. Ok, still with me so far? Here we go.

What would be wrong with hate? against Blacks, Whites, Gays, whomever. I mean after all, under evolutional thought, the weaker species, in this case sub-group, should not survive nor be allowed to right? Didn't Hitler have this same goal in mind?

Next one, why is killing someone wrong? For instance, someone has a set of doubles I want and I kill them. Is it wrong because its against the law or is it wrong in itself regardless of the law?

Final question, is there such a thing as absolute right and wrong? and did it help or hinder man's evolution?

 

[The Chairman]

I picked your post first because it was the shortest and easiest.

But you never addressed my points.

1) I did not single YOU out, but bigotry in general. If the shoe fits, by all means wear it, but I never singled you out as believing this lie.

2) It's always easiest to see the bigotry coming from the other side. Unfortunately, bigotry is no respecter of ideologies, ethnicity or economics. It's incredibly easy to justify these horrid beliefs when you try to back them with skewed statistics. All too often some will use an unfortunate incident(s) to try and prove why the person "deserved it". Even the disciples got into this:

John 9:1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" NIV

The rest of the passage is a real "eye opener" and reveals a lot about assumptions.

Many extremists would have us believe in a vengeful God where love is given out sparingly and God is swift to punish any miscreants. In reality, there is a causality between death and risky behaviors, but most of us draw the wrong conlusion from the data. Promiscuity in and of itself bears it's own consequences, and God does not actively strike people down: they do it to themselves. It's incredibly important that we get the bigoted hype and accusations out of our day to day language. Trying to scare people into morality is not only insincere, but will ultimately fail.

As it is, diseases and how we adjust (behaviors and resistances) is all a part of evolution. Fortunately for humans, we can actively identify and then change our risky behaviors (smoking, unprotected sex, walking in front of a speeding semi) and we can even try and find ways to ameliorate any conditions arising from these behaviors. Those who try to assign blame for such diseases needlessly delay our efforts to solve their cure. Make no doubt about it, for the most part their agenda is political and all about power, and they use the lives of the innocents as a political football to push this political agenda.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

The biologist Huxley was once asked what he had learned about God after studying nature for 50 years... Huxley thought for a while and replied "He's very fond of beetles" We consider ourselves special, in biology and in the eyes of God. But...

Myth #1 Humans are a successful species --- modern man has been around for perhaps 100 thousand years, while many insects trace back hundreds of millions of years... if we are here in the year 200 000 000 AD, we can be considered successful

Myth#2 Humans have had the most impact on the planet --- our atmosphere would be methane if it were not for blue green algae. Do we have the power to convert the entire atmosphere from methane to nitrogen and oxygen? No. Likewise, microorganisms determine the flux of materials like nitrogen in the soil and heavy metal in the oceans. Our impact on the globe is minimal compared to unicellular species.

Myth #3 We are the most intelligent species on the planet. How do we know? We can't define intelligence, so how do we know we have the most of it? Again, microorganisms excel at stereochemical problem solving, that's why they adapt quickly to antibiotics and environmental toxins. Moroever, which is smarter, a single cell or a human being... before you answer, remember that a single cell made you. All the data and machinery for constructing us sits on the head of a pin, namely, the human ovum.
Consider the cancer cell --- we hit it with amounts of radiation and chemical poisons that no cell has ever experienced in the history of the world, yet they survive. Why? because cells adapt, learn, analyze... how else would life have survived on this planet for so long? Biological intelligence is more than writing sonatas and doing math word problems. Intelligence is adapting to new dangers, outthinking competitors, outfoxing predators. To be alive requires intelligence. All living things must be smart or die.
Humans and whales may have evolved large brains, not to think, but to have a large set of spare nerve cells as a hedge against hypoxia. Humans are best adapted to running in the African climates from which we evolved. Look at the buttock and thigh muscles of a fit human compared to an ape. Our lack of hair, extensive sweat capacity, upright posture, huge lung capacity and massive nervous system suggest an animal build for running. Humans can maintain near sprint speed for two to three hours, distances of 30 to 40 miles; no other mammal on earth can do the same and live. We are runners, not thinkers. Thinking is just a byproduct. And maybe a dangerous one at that.

Myth #4 We are the most advanced species in evolution. We forget that the housefly on the wall is a 2006 version of the housefly lineage, not a relic of the Jurassic era. All creatures alive today represent the most advanced version of their particular approach to survival. Insects approach life by crushing it with sheer numbers of simple, cheap individuals. Mammals chose to survive by deploying small numbers of very complex and "expensive" individuals. Which approach is better? See Huxley above. There are more species and more biomass in insects.

Thus, why are we so special? And why would God only want to have a special relationship with us? This view is, in my opinion, a reflection of our arrogance as a species. I believe in God, but I believe he looks at all of life as his children, not just us.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Gooid points Pete and I didn't mean to single you out either.

You are right, God doesn't strike people down they do it to themselves. God isn't vengeful but debts get paid. Fortunately we had help in that department.

Not only can we not scare people into morality but, in terms of our society, I don't believe there is such a thing as morality. If it doesn't involve force or somebody under the legal age of concent it's permissible. What is not permissible is to insinuate that it might be wrong.

I suppose that by the standards of our society I am a bigot because I believe that some things are wrong. It has nothing to do with power because I have none and it has nothing to do with politics because, with the exception of an occasional trip down the street to vote, I have no involvement in politics.

Of course, there are plenty who would like to string me up in the street anyway because while every one is right, that only holds true if you agree with everyone else.

Dang me, dang me, they ught to take a rope and hang me. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

Interesting AXL72,

Let me ask you a series of questions. In fact, let me pose these to other evolutionists as well. Of course, anyone who has followed this thread is aware that I am one of those Christian Fundamental extremists, which is defined by me as being someone who believes the Bible is 100% God's words.

Here it is written very clear by my church,

The Bible is God's Word to all men. It was written by human authors under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.

II Timothy 3:16-17, II Peter 1:20-21, II Timothy 1:13, Psalm 119:105,160, Psalm 12:6, Proverbs 30:5

Now, since I believe what is written in the Bible, I do not believe in the evolution of man. I believe that man was created by God to have a relationship with Him period.

BUT, just for the sake of exploring this, say I did believe that Darwin and others were right. Ok, still with me so far? Here we go.

What would be wrong with hate? against Blacks, Whites, Gays, whomever. I mean after all, under evolutional thought, the weaker species, in this case sub-group, should not survive nor be allowed to right? Didn't Hitler have this same goal in mind?

Wouldn't hate be just a chemical reaction taking place strictly by chance? How could it be wrong? It just is.

Next one, why is killing someone wrong? For instance, someone has a set of doubles I want and I kill them. Is it wrong because its against the law or is it wrong in itself regardless of the law?

If $1 worth of chemicals flushes another $1 worth of chemicals down the toilet a third $1 worth of chemicals might place the first $1 worth of chemicals in a jail cell. We still have a total of $3 worth of chemicals although $2 worth of chemicals have changed location...$1 being down the toilet and $1 being in the jail cell.

It seems just plain wrong to me to blame $1 worth of chemicals for it's chemical reaction.

Final question, is there such a thing as absolute right and wrong? and did it help or hinder man's evolution?

There is no absolute right or wrong because there is no fixed reference. But again, what sense does it make to apply terms like right and wrong to a bunch of chance chemical reactions?

 

[AXL72]

 

[AXL72]

http://jesusfightssanta.ytmnd.com/

http://christmasfight.ytmnd.com/

http://santaisgreaterthanjesus.ytmnd.com/

http://jesusnotawesome.ytmnd.com/

http://jesusgr8ergod.ytmnd.com/

http://georgevsjesus.ytmnd.com/

http://jesussatanbff.ytmnd.com/

 

[Warthaug]

Warthaug,

I'm still reading these links, however, I don't see how what Mike said is incorrect. Granted, I'm not a medical expert, but it seems to me that risky sexual actions cause quite a few problems.

True, but it is only one of the several risk factors which results in the spread of HIV. To blame all HIV infection on this would be to ignore the 1/3rd or so of patients who got the disease via other vectors.

Read that as sex outside marriage.

So if we let gays marry we could elimiate spread in their community? Why all the opposition then ?

In the HIV clinic which we collaberate with about 1/4 of the patients contracted HIV from their spouses. In the majority of these cases the source of the spouses HIV was (as far as we can determine) was drugs, not extramarital sex.

I know that someone will accuse me of being in the dark ages or some other sort of non-sense, however I stand by what the Bible has said.

Can I buy your kids then? [yes, that's a joke in very bad taste, but Deuteronomy 15 and even Jesus (via Timothy, Peter and Corinthians) tell us it is OK]

I'm not picking a fight, but you seem to be saying that homosexuals might be born with some type of brain chemical issue?

interesting...

Firstly, the most of the identified hormonal and immunological differences which are associated with homosexuality are found in the mothers, not the homosexuals themselves.

Secondly, to call is an "issue" or "disease" would be misleading. As far as we can tell it is a normal variation in brain form within the human species. You could take each and every member of Scubaboard, preform a brain scan, and find differences in their brains compared to the population in general. Does this mean we all have brain diseases? Of course not. Rather, it simply points out that our brains are like every part of our bodies - they can be different from person to person.

Bryan

 

[AXL72]

DELETED...Yes I was being an @$$ again....Sawry...however, here is actually some good reading without my sly remarks. Take it any way you want.

http://signfromgod.ytmnd.com/
http://jeez-its.ytmnd.com/
http://awesomesheezygod.ytmnd.com/
http://www.killingthebuddha.com/eat_god_now/mmm_jesus.htm
http://www.almy.com/commbread.html
http://www.saintjudes.org/src/Recipes/bread.html
http://www.sxws.com/charis/filthy.htm