Crazy buddies

[buleetu]

hi everyone

just wanna ask u guys if this was okay for someone to do yesterday

we planned our max depth to be 22m but we wanted to stay around 18 because thats my limit,im OW

there were 3 of us in the group and because the other 2 knew each other,they were brothers actually they were to check each other and 1 of them was to check me before the dive, i always check my self any way so its just a back up incase i miss something, however i was fine after the check and i hopped in to wait for the other 2 to be ready to jump in because it was really hot and the boat was moored, no big deal aye
the next thing i know the 2 of them are in the water with me we are all ready to decend when 1 of them realises he doesnt have his mask on his face, now this is after the big okay and the thumbs down right

so i shouted wheres ur mask because i was a few metres away and then he starts to notice he doesnt have his mask on

so he is looking every where for the mask, in the trim pockets in his wetsuit, on the back of his head until i notice its actually sinking down below us into the deep, so the other bro decends after the mask, no signs no words just decends, it took him ten minutes to get back to a depth of water we could see him in and i was signaling to stay there because i had giving him my spare mask and we would meet at 10 m or so, but to no avail, he keeps ascending

it turned out the mask was sitting on the bottom directly below us at 21 metres which is 1 m short of our limit, he goes down and comes back up and then we decend again to a max depth of 21 on my computer

surely this cant be okay, didnt he need a 5 metre stop or something before he came back with the mask

should he have waited until we decended together while his brother wore my mask and then if his mask was so important to him he could have changed it underwater and gave the other back to me

1 brother was actually supposed to lead the dive but he forgot the breifing our guide had giving us and we were way off course so i had to jump ahead and take over

you never can tell on the boat what the skills of other divers are can you?? these were russians i think so it was difficult enough to communicate with laungage the only way to tell is in the water i think, but then its too late

what do u think??

 

[Guba]

Well, Pardna', I'm no expert, but it appears to me there were a number of problems on this dive:
1) Communication was in short supply, and not just because of a language barrier. It appears that even the two brothers didn't do a very effective job of communicating between themselves.
2) I'm assuming that this was the first dive of the excursion, but 21 meters is still a pretty big bounce. While it would be unlikely that the diver would take a DCS hit, I was trained to avoid sizeable bounces like the one you described unless absolutely necessary.
3) A little patience and communication would have solved the problem. In a very short discussion, you would have been able to provide the backup mask, everyone could have descended together, and the lost mask would be recovered.
4) The problem with the mask wasn't the only one. Sounds like the brothers might have been used to one another (for what that's worth), and they weren't adapting to a new scenario (having you along). But the fact that the "leader" deviated from the dive plan and ignored the briefing is pretty telling.

Sounds like you did the best you could with what you had. Sometimes you simply have to dance with the partner you have or get off the dance floor.

 

[scubadiver888]

hi everyone

just wanna ask u guys if this was okay for someone to do yesterday

we planned our max depth to be 22m but we wanted to stay around 18 because thats my limit,im OW

If your limit is 18m then your max depth should have been 18m. Was there a reason for a max depth of 22m? If you are going deep just for the sake of going deep that is a bad reason. Right off, this sentence makes me think the rest of this posting is not going to be good.

there were 3 of us in the group and because the other 2 knew each other,they were brothers actually they were to check each other and 1 of them was to check me before the dive, i always check my self any way so its just a back up incase i miss something, however i was fine after the check and i hopped in to wait for the other 2 to be ready to jump in because it was really hot and the boat was moored, no big deal aye

Diving in three is usually not a good idea unless you are experienced and everyone knows everyone. I'm reading this as two brothers are going diving and you are tagging along. With two divers it is easy, you watch me and I watch you. With three divers is it diver1 watches diver2, diver2 watches diver3 and diver3 watches diver1? Did you establish this? If you have an OOA, who do you go to? If you get a cramp, who is going to help you? At 18m (or is it 22m?) you don't want any ambiguity. Diving in three is not normal so it will not be second nature for you.

You always check yourself? Bad attitude. Do you check to make sure the cord for the dump cord is not trapped under the tank? All the clips and velcro on the BCD is correct? These are things which are easy for your buddy to check; LET HIM. Additionally, if you are not checking your buddy you are not getting the necessary practice being a good buddy.

Waiting in the water is fine, so long as your buddy can see you. Someone watched you jump in, right? And you gave them an OK once you were in the water, right?

the next thing i know the 2 of them are in the water with me we are all ready to decend when 1 of them realises he doesnt have his mask on his face, now this is after the big okay and the thumbs down right

so i shouted wheres ur mask because i was a few metres away and then he starts to notice he doesnt have his mask on

so he is looking every where for the mask, in the trim pockets in his wetsuit, on the back of his head until i notice its actually sinking down below us into the deep, so the other bro decends after the mask, no signs no words just decends, it took him ten minutes to get back to a depth of water we could see him in and i was signaling to stay there because i had giving him my spare mask and we would meet at 10 m or so, but to no avail, he keeps ascending

Losing his mask is not good. This is something that should never happen. He should have entered the water with his mask on. If this is a boat dive and entry is a giant stride, he should have been covering the reg and mask with one hand.

Going after the mask was not a good idea either. Viable options: (a) see if there is another mask he can use (I always carry a spare). You can then do the dive and hopefully recover the lost mask. (b) the two guys with masks do a search and recover for the lost mask. The other guy sits out this dive. (c) if the water is too deep, consider the mask lost. If there is a spare mask, start over. If not, third diver is done for the day.

it turned out the mask was sitting on the bottom directly below us at 21 metres which is 1 m short of our limit, he goes down and comes back up and then we decend again to a max depth of 21 on my computer

surely this cant be okay, didnt he need a 5 metre stop or something before he came back with the mask

He definitely increased his risk of a DCS hit. This is why I would have just considered it a dive, gone and got the mask with my remaining buddy. This means doing the safety stop and everything.

should he have waited until we decended together while his brother wore my mask and then if his mask was so important to him he could have changed it underwater and gave the other back to me

Yes but hindsight is 20/20.

1 brother was actually supposed to lead the dive but he forgot the breifing our guide had giving us and we were way off course so i had to jump ahead and take over

you never can tell on the boat what the skills of other divers are can you?? these were russians i think so it was difficult enough to communicate with laungage the only way to tell is in the water i think, but then its too late

what do u think??

I think you should have called the dive the moment you didn't have a real buddy. Joining an existing buddy pair was a bad idea, especially if they are insta-buddies to you.

 

[buleetu]

how do i do quick quote boxes guys??

quote"think you should have called the dive the moment you didn't have a real buddy. Joining an existing buddy pair was a bad idea, especially if they are insta-buddies to you"

all week i have had an insta buddy or a guide as a buddy that would be at the top of the group leaving me on my own in front with a pair behind and then a pair behind that, i wouldnt be always within reach of the guide either, if i called the dive yesterday i would have had to call nearly every dive for the last 2 weeks, i only got to dive with the same buddy once or twice all week

we planned on doing the exact same thing, the older brother was leading and me and the other bro were buddies, the leader would come to his bro in an emergency

quote"You always check yourself? Bad attitude. Do you check to make sure the cord for the dump cord is not trapped under the tank? All the clips and velcro on the BCD is correct? These are things which are easy for your buddy to check; LET HIM. Additionally, if you are not checking your buddy you are not getting the necessary practice being a good buddy."

i take ur point here on the not getting practice being a good buddy, but in this situation is there a need for me to check the diver who has already been checked 2 minutes previously, i always check everything on my self before the buddy check, i have seen people not bother with half of the check so why should i depend on someone else to turn on my air or check that its on i check and re check, then im checked again by the buddy because thats what i was told to do, just incase i forget something, which could happen i guess i mean look at this guy forgetting his mask, and thats a really obvious thing, but i take ur point completly no more skipping buddy checks for the other person


quote"Waiting in the water is fine, so long as your buddy can see you. Someone watched you jump in, right? And you gave them an OK once you were in the water, right?"

yes i told them i was getting in, i done the usuall check got in and then signalled i was okay and waiting for them

to be honest i was quite excited about getting to go with a normal group instead of the guide being there, the conditions were perfect too so i think the instructor took that into consideration as well, but there is no way to know from the surface what its like under water, we had to change dorection the previous day because of the currents, but the guide anticipated that we might have to change direction if it was too strong

all good points well made guys thank you

 

[kilo_fox]

how do i do quick quote boxes guys??

Simply by clicking on the little square field "QUOTE" at the bottom of the post. If you want to quote only a specific point you can delete the other part (as I just did with your post).
To quote several posts, hit the button "M-QUOTE" (multiple quote) of all posts you want to quote (you'll see that the small blue dot will become red) and then "REPLY".

 

[scubadiver888]

all week i have had an insta buddy or a guide as a buddy that would be at the top of the group leaving me on my own in front with a pair behind and then a pair behind that, i wouldnt be always within reach of the guide either, if i called the dive yesterday i would have had to call nearly every dive for the last 2 weeks, i only got to dive with the same buddy once or twice all week

I'm not saying never insta-buddy. I'm saying never insta-buddy with an existing pair. Look at things from the perspective of the two BROTHERS you joined. They have established themselves as a buddy team. You come along and ask if you can buddy with them. It is easy for them to say yes and then just dive like they were going to dive. In an emergency situation do you help your brother or a guy you just met 10 minutes ago? Both of them would have this perspective.

If I'm diving locally, I go to dive shops or clubs. I make friends and decide who I trust and who I don't. If I'm on vacation I go to the dive shop early or I find out where the divers hang out. I chat them up and find someone who wants to be my buddy. I also get a feel for what type of diver they are. Sometimes my buddy doesn't want to dive as much as I do so I find a back up buddy. Another option that actually works for me a lot is seeing if the count is odd (not including the dive master/instructor/guide). If it is I buddy with the DM/instructor/guide. I do this right away before anyone else thinks to.

Remember, your dive buddy is part of your life support system. He is your redundant air and you are his. The more you can do to pick a good buddy the better. I never join an existing team unless they are professionals (dive master, instructor, etc.) and willing to take me under their wing.

we planned on doing the exact same thing, the older brother was leading and me and the other bro were buddies, the leader would come to his bro in an emergency

I wouldn't trust it. I like to spend one-on-one time with my insta-buddy. Usually there is a bit of time before the boat gets to the dive site (if it is a shore dive we have all the time in the world). I chat with the guy and build some sort of relationship. Heck, we are usually waiting for a few minutes at the dive shop before the boat leaves and I'll start chatting people there. It would be difficult if not impossible to establish a relationship with the two brothers. There would be no one-on-one time.

I also like to establish who is the less experienced and guarantee we dive to the less experienced diver's ability. If they are not okay with that I find another buddy. The whole bounce to 22m when you are certified to 18m just wouldn't sit well with me.

i take ur point here on the not getting practice being a good buddy, but in this situation is there a need for me to check the diver who has already been checked 2 minutes previously, i always check everything on my self before the buddy check, i have seen people not bother with half of the check so why should i depend on someone else to turn on my air or check that its on i check and re check, then im checked again by the buddy because thats what i was told to do, just incase i forget something, which could happen i guess i mean look at this guy forgetting his mask, and thats a really obvious thing, but i take ur point completly no more skipping buddy checks for the other person

Well, first, I wouldn't be diving in this situation. But if I was. If diver1 is watching diver2, diver2 is watching diver3 and diver3 is watching diver1 then it starts IMMEDIATELY. Being a buddy does not start in the water. It starts the moment you meet. I help my buddy with his equipment onto the boat. I expect him to help me get my gear on the boat. We chat about our history and experience. We help each other suit up. With a three buddy system, diver1 would check diver2, diver2 would check diver3 and diver3 would check diver1.

As you dive more and more you will hear stories. It will change what you check for. I heard of someone who had his octo inside the back of his BCD when he put it on. Fortunately, he didn't need it but his buddy noticed his octo didn't seem to be there. When he checked (after they were in the water) he realized what had happened. When they got back on the boat they remembered to check this on the second dive. I check my buddy for something like this.

I've seen people jump in the water and forget to put on their weight belt. Most the time this is just annoying because the diver cannot get down so they have to get out, take their gear off, put on the weight belt (some try putting the belt on without taking the gear off). You then have to do a full buddy check again. What if the guy was diving doubles and needed just enough weight to compensate for the tanks when they were empty. He'd be able to get down but won't be able to do his safety stop.

to be honest i was quite excited about getting to go with a normal group instead of the guide being there, the conditions were perfect too so i think the instructor took that into consideration as well, but there is no way to know from the surface what its like under water, we had to change dorection the previous day because of the currents, but the guide anticipated that we might have to change direction if it was too strong

all good points well made guys thank you

Naw, I like going with the guide. The only thing better than going with a guide is diving with a friend. This is what the guide does for a living. Even the worst guide I've met is good enough as a buddy. I've had some bad buddies but I try to make sure they are at worst annoying.

 

[DaleC]

I think Darrel makes a lot of good points for discussion but I don't agree that self checking is a bad attitude or makes one a poor buddy. Self sufficiency is a good attitude to adopt in diving, even if you always dive with a buddy and especially if you will be doing a lot of insta buddy dives.

Because I sometimes solo I tend to self check every dive. My buddy can do it too but I'm not depending on it. I know my life depends on the pre dive check so I take the time and do it right (step by step - the same way every time). This attention to detail (IMO) makes me a better buddy (when I buddy) as I may pick up on things with a partners rig that he/she might not pay as much attention too because they are buddy Dependant and think someone will always be there when the sh_t hits the fan.

The best scenario would be to have regular, trustworthy buddies that check each thoroughly, like DIR or UTD proponents, with well defined rules/ ways of doing things but barring that, I would either not dive or become self sufficient.

 

[scubadiver888]

I think Darrel makes a lot of good points for discussion but I don't agree that self checking is a bad attitude or makes one a poor buddy. Self sufficiency is a good attitude to adopt in diving, even if you always dive with a buddy and especially if you will be doing a lot of insta buddy dives.

I agree completely. You want to check your buddy just to get in the habit of checking your buddy but this does not mean you don't check your own gear as well. I'll reach back and check my tank valve. I'll confirm I can find all my hoses and all my gear is properly clipped. I check my weight belt, etc.

I also like my buddy to check me as well. Heck, local dives the boat master checks everyone as well. So by the time I've hit the water I've been checked at least three times.

Because I sometimes solo I tend to self check every dive. My buddy can do it too but I'm not depending on it. I know my life depends on the pre dive check so I take the time and do it right (step by step - the same way every time). This attention to detail (IMO) makes me a better buddy (when I buddy) as I may pick up on things with a partners rig that he/she might not pay as much attention too because they are buddy Dependant and think someone will always be there when the sh_t hits the fan.

The best scenario would be to have regular, trustworthy buddies that check each thoroughly, like DIR or UTD proponents, with well defined rules/ ways of doing things but barring that, I would either not dive or become self sufficient.

I'm not at a point yet where I solo dive. Practice, practice, practice.

Even if you are not buddy dependant and know no one will be there when the sh_t hits the fan, people make mistakes. It never hurts to have another set of eyes check your gear.

 

[DaleC]

I can't disagree with that

 

[buleetu]

i would say its really important for me to check my own gear because if some of the buddies ive met recently are anything to go by i would be in big trouble if i had to depend on them if i was in trouble, fair enough its good to practice being a good buddy, and yes i do need the practice, but i think i need to practice making sure im okay to go in the water in the first place, then when they do the buddy check with me it will be a once over just for the 2nd set of eyes aspect ye know, like the guy who was ready to decend with no mask on his face