CPR so you think you are doing it right !

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I've been CPR certified for 17 years, and can't tell you how many times training has changed (the number of compressions vs. breaths have changed and vise-vera, etc...). Bottom line is....if someone is dead (sorry if thats not the PC term), they are dead. Sure, CPR is better than no CPR, but your chances of actually bringing someone back from the dead are very slim. I recall something like 6% get a heartbeat back, but even most of them don't actually "recover" and walk out of the hospital. Are there exceptions? Absolutely! But they are few and far between. Doing it "right" verses doing it under pressure in a dynamic situation usually won't undo what mother nature has already done. You do what you can with the tools and knowledge you have, and you hope for the best.

If you have a heart attack, stay away from me.....I am 0/6 without a defib, (2 got a heartbeat back but were pronounced dead at the hospital) and 0/2 with a defib. So far, all my dead people are still dead.
 
MB104:
If you have a heart attack, stay away from me.....I am 0/6 without a defib, (2 got a heartbeat back but were pronounced dead at the hospital) and 0/2 with a defib. So far, all my dead people are still dead.
Mike, I know it's not at all appropriate, but this made me laugh.
 
The first thing to remember about CPR is that if it is necessary the person is dead to begin with, so you can't do any further harm. Everything else is statistics.

That said, my department has just completed their part in a multi-year, multi-city North American study. At variation with the generally accepted AHA standards, our department (4th largest in North America) concentrated on early defib taking priority over all else. As I understand it, the study was designed to answer the "chicken and an egg" question: is it more important to circulate oxygenated blood or to re-establish a normal heart ryhthm?

I have not seen a formal report or analysis of the data as yet. But when we received our new protocols a few weeks ago, the defib has been dramatically de-emphasized in favour of early and efficient CPR compressions -- even ahead of establishing an airway. I leave you to draw your own conclusions as to the study's findings.

Personally, I have brought back several people with CPR alone. In two cases we captured the event on the monitor. The first was under the old AHA standard of 1 minute of CPR followed by de-fib. One rescuer was doing compressions, another airway (BVM over OPA) and the third was connecting electrodes. The strip showed compressions modulated by v-fib, then a couple of irregular QRS complexes and a cessation of CPR (more on that in a moment) and a gradual steadying into normal sinus rhythm. Respirations returned very shortly thereafter.

In the second case, Px was reported as choking. I connected the SAED, Px was asystole, and we proceeded to CPR. We could not establish an airway and I proceeded to abdominal thrusts alternating with attempted CPR. Thrusts would not clear the airway but brought a piece of meat up just far enough to be grasped with forceps and extracted. Shortly after O2 was introduced by BVM (but prior to intubation and drug therapy), we detected a spontaneous return of pulse during compressions. After a few minutes of bagging only, (and epinephrine etc.) respirations returned.

In both these cases, the return of pulse was detected early. Why? Because I was taught to monitor carotid pulse periodically during compressions to verify effectiveness. I felt the return of pulse. Femoral pulse is great and all, but we are really concerned with oxygenating the brain -- not the legs. It is a simple matter for a rescuer performing an inverse jaw thrust to reach down with one finger and verify a pulse. Not only does a natural pulse feel different, it's really obvious when it occurs between compressions.

I do not present these cases as typical, but as documented proof of the fallacy that early defib is the only effective treatment. Early defib is merely one tool in the bag.

Finally, I would like to address the issue of performing compressions in the water. There is no doubt that attempting compressions on any patient that is not supine on a flat surface is difficult. I always prefer to slide the px out of bed and onto the floor. But in some cases it is necessary to slide a backboard underneath the victim (or between the victim and the seat back) and work with what you have for the moment. The advantage in SCUBA is that the patient is already wearing a backboard. It would be very awkward, tiring and difficult, but if I was in the water with a VSA diver, I would attempt compressions for at least one minute (or until surface support arrived, whichever occured first) with one hand -- the other would be under the diver's backplate/BCD stabilizing us to each other.

Just my 2¢.
 
cdiver2:
CHICAGO(AP) CPR is often performed inadequately by doctors, paramedics and nurses

I guess EMTs must be doing it OK :D
 
...in the "depth of compression" department, I once split the sternum of an unfortuneate elderly patient ( cancer-ridden, osteoporotic, with a d.n.r. order, except we F.F's, in my area, cannot honour d.n.r.'s in the field at this time...I know, I know, but I don't make the rules, I just try to exist in those frustrating "grey areas"...).

The left side of the rib cage was displaced to the point where I could compress the ( now unprotected ) heart quite easily, & created a beautiful, consistent rythym on the monitor. Alas, the poor man's time was up & he did not respond.

I tell this story to encourage all those who help to try & keep helping as best as you possibly can; & we in the emergency services applaud & appreciate your assistance.

Best,
D.S.D.
 
Wildcard:
BTW chest compressions don't "restart" the heart as is stated in the article.....Early defib followed by early ACLS is the key to survival.

I agree. CPR isn't supposed to revive a victim like we all see in the movies. CPR is supposed to extend the window of opportunity to allow for successful professional revival. Every CPR course and refresher course I have taken since 1980 has always stressed not to be surprised if after x number of minutes the victim doesn't wake up and thank you for saving them.

Your job performing CPR is to keep blood flowing and O2 getting in to the lungs as best you can, for as long as you can and hope to god the paramedics/doctors get there to take over and finish the job.
 
archman:
I'll merely say that most folks doing CPR are going to be pretty dang shy about cracking ribs. Yeah yeah we're always told to "not be nice", but being told something and application are two different beasts.

More realistic practice dummies, that's the only solution I see. That, or a really dramatic on-topic episode of ER. One of the key characters would have to be killed off due to inadequate chest compressions. Hmmm... wonder who should get the axe... maybe that rock star resident. What a twerp.

friend of mine who got EMT training as a firefighter said what they would do is have trainees practice chest compressions on people that were dead at the scene. person's dead so no matter how you do the chest compressions it ain't gonna hurt them any more.

that's a realistic practice dummy for you...
 
CPR just keeps 'em fresh.....ACLS might bring them back (rarely). When taking my ACLS courses, 'medics and nurses rarely fail but doctors often do. This reflects their dependence on the "first line" to do all the initial work. Have I had saves? Yes, but all too rarely. Does CPR cause damage? Usually. However, if they are to survive at all, they can heal that fractured sternum/ribs.

To blame CPR for failure to survive is ridiculous. These folks are GONE already! One should thank whatever CPR is performed. Unless you have done it, you won't even begin to understand the emotional toll it exacts.
 
Allison Finch:
To blame CPR for failure to survive is ridiculous. These folks are GONE already! One should thank whatever CPR is performed. Unless you have done it, you won't even begin to understand the emotional toll it exacts.
Good point and just out of curiosity, anyone seen the video "The Psychology of Resuscitation"?
 
firemedic296:
sorry about that guys, i missed the post by mass diver about the femoral pulse, and he must be watching too much tv because i have never seen a docter do chest compressions, the medics working their @## off on the way in are the ones that work'em till the end.


I've seen docs do chest compressions 3 or 4 times. At night on many floors, there aren't that many people around and often times untill the code team arrives there may be only be a few nurses around - any doc that happens to be on the floor is grabbed and made to get to work. With multiple codes on the same floor or even in the same hosptial, docs are fair game to recurit for CPR. These days we have a big nurse shortage and new nurses will sometimes defer to doc.

BTW: Did you even read the article that this whole thread is based on? It's based on nurses AND DOCTORS doing CPR

And, of course, there aren't many medics in the hosptial.

And, btw, yes - a nurse runs the code.
 
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