Contingency planning in OW training?

[TMHeimer]

To get back to the quote about what to do if you're low on air and buddy refuses to ascend. I guess I would point to my SPG/DC vigorously then signal that I'm going up whether he does or not.
Of course, as stated, the buddy is not worth diving with..(again). That doesn't help me now, and a buddy can deviate from the discussed plan once underwater.
I'm assuming it's an instabuddy, or this most likely doesn't happen.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I wonder if some have forgotten how much more stressful diving is for new divers, especially in non-tropical/ideal environments, and how stress impairs a person's ability to think clearly. Stress and Decision Making: Effects on Valuation, Learning, and Risk-taking

 

[NAM001]

I've seen a few folks here get dragged for "not following [their] training" in the wake of accidents or near misses, particularly in cases where a buddy or even a DM/guide ignored their "low air" signal or offered their octopus instead of ascending. I've reviewed my PADI OW manual (version 3.02) and it doesn't address this specific scenario. It does say not to risk running out of air underwater, but it certainly doesn't say not to share air in order to avoid that outcome; in fact, it teaches that sharing air is the preferred way to deal with an OOA situation, if possible. It also teaches that the first step in ascending is to signal your buddy. It emphasizes that avoiding buddy separation is YOUR responsibility. It teaches that, if you and your buddy become separated, the normal procedure, unless agreed otherwise with your buddy, is to search for each other underwater for a full minute before surfacing to try to find them there. (It also doesn't go into what to do then if your buddy doesn't surface.)

So I'm curious. Are there other training agencies that do explicitly teach that you should ascend alone once you reach a certain tank pressure even if your buddy refuses to come along? Do they get into exceptions (like areas with heavy boat traffic where that might not be safe?) Or do people think that should be inferred from the lessons PADI imparts as summarized above?

Are there other "Plan B" (or "Plan C") scenarios that get more attention in some OW courses than others? For example, running just slightly low on air, such that you can either surface with 500 psi or do a safety stop but not both, getting lost underwater, dealing with nausea/vertigo and vomiting underwater, etc. Not looking for answers as to what to do in those situations (though I anticipate that people will end up discussing those things); my question is what, if anything, do the major training agencies teach about these things in their OW courses?

my opinion only. rules are made to produce a given output. those rules assume certain conditions. When the conditions change the rules have to go out the window. You loose your buddy or the buddy will not listen to you head up even if they will not follow. After all you have a choice you can run out of air following the rule of staying with your buddy or save your self from a poor buddy. You can then argue about it later.

 

[Esprise Me]

@shurite7 If you PM me the question and I'm wrong (that is, the question does address a buddy who refuses to ascend), I'll admit it publicly here without reproducing the copyrighted material. But I'm very confident now that you're still not getting it.

@Diving Dubai Yes, CESA and air share are taught. But the latter is taught as being preferable to the former if your buddy is closer than the surface. What's not covered is what to do if your buddy gives you his octo and then sees no reason to ascend right away.

This thread has been truly eye-opening for me. I wouldn't have imagined that instructors could have such a hard time with this concept. It's one thing to say, no, it isn't covered in OW, but there just isn't time to cover every contingency, or no, it isn't addressed directly, but the fundamentals are taught, and the details are always going to require fact-specific decisionmaking. It's another to insist that this Plan B is taught and then only be able to describe the Plan A.

Some of the other what-ifs I mentioned in the OP are questions I put to one of my AOW instructors, and he was able to offer a thoughtful analysis and decision-making framework. Several folks in this thread have done the same. I think I'm going to recommend these questions to the next person who asks how to choose an instructor.

 

[Blackcrusader]

@Diving Dubai Yes, CESA and air share are taught. But the latter is taught as being preferable to the former if your buddy is closer than the surface. What's not covered is what to do if your buddy gives you his octo and then sees no reason to ascend right away.

I did a dive with my son ( OW) at a dive center where I regularly dive and know the DM's I dive with.
One one dive my son blew through his air pumping air in and out of his BCD, mask clearing and just wasting air....

After 30 mins he was down to 60 bar. I indicated to the DM guide my son is at 60 Bar and myself at 160 bar. I put my son on my secondary and had him hold onto my BCD. He didn't need to control buoyancy or fin and then just seemed to relax. We shared air to the point when the DM advised all the divers to do a safety stop and then board the boat. My son did the last 5 minutes on his own air and finished the dive with 50 bar as we were shallow.

I could have ended the dive early and had the boat come pick us up where we were. The guide was fine with us continuing the dive.

For the OP I advised him end the dive and go do the safety stop and wait on the surface than risk running out of air. He is responsible to himself first before anything else.

 

[Diving Dubai]

This thread has been truly eye-opening for me. I wouldn't have imagined that instructors could have such a hard time with this concept. It's one thing to say, no, it isn't covered in OW, but there just isn't time to cover every contingency, or no, it isn't addressed directly, but the fundamentals are taught, and the details are always going to require fact-specific decisionmaking. It's another to insist that this Plan B is taught and then only be able to describe the Plan A

You have a specific scenario. And no that specific scenario is not covered in any courses.

OW is a foundation course. It gives you all the basic skills, That will coverer 95% of the situations. The OW course can be overwhelming and an information overload for lots of students. Again on their first post certification dives they forget what they were taught. It takes time and experience to consolidate everything.

Ignoring equipment failures.

Divers are taught to monitor their SPG so you should always have enough air to get to the surface. You are taught Air Sharing ascents. You are also taught lost buddy. i.e. look for 1 min and then make a slow controlled ascent (solo) So these 2 options should cover your scenario. Modern OW even includes practice with surface markers (although I teach dmsb from 6m because that's what is generally used here)

Do I teach what happens if your buddy ignorers your request? No. I also don't teach numerous other scenarios that I have encountered over the years. I do teach that you're responsible your your own safety and actions.

A vast majority incidents in the AI forums can be absolutely traced back to the diver not following the basic rules they were taught.

 

[TMHeimer]

You have a specific scenario. And no that specific scenario is not covered in any courses.

OW is a foundation course. It gives you all the basic skills, That will coverer 95% of the situations. The OW course can be overwhelming and an information overload for lots of students. Again on their first post certification dives they forget what they were taught. It takes time and experience to consolidate everything.

Ignoring equipment failures.

Divers are taught to monitor their SPG so you should always have enough air to get to the surface. You are taught Air Sharing ascents. You are also taught lost buddy. i.e. look for 1 min and then make a slow controlled ascent (solo) So these 2 options should cover your scenario. Modern OW even includes practice with surface markers (although I teach dmsb from 6m because that's what is generally used here)

Do I teach what happens if your buddy ignorers your request? No. I also don't teach numerous other scenarios that I have encountered over the years. I do teach that you're responsible your your own safety and actions.

A vast majority incidents in the AI forums can be absolutely traced back to the diver not following the basic rules they were taught.

Extremely well put. Follow the "rules" you were taught, dive regularly if you can, and use common sense.

 

[shurite7]

@shurite7 If you PM me the question and I'm wrong (that is, the question does address a buddy who refuses to ascend), I'll admit it publicly here without reproducing the copyrighted material. But I'm very confident now that you're still not getting it.

Now your issue is clear. Your initial post is easily interpreted as the basic open water course does not cover a low on air situation, rather than what to do when a buddy refuses to donate. In the latter case you are correct, there is no specific question on the quizzes or exam regarding that scenario. A buddy that refuses to abide by the plan, that was discussed prior to the dive between the both of you, is one not worth diving with again.

So then, what do you wish had been taught in order to deal with such a situation?

 

[Blackcrusader]

Now your issue is clear. So then, what do you wish had been taught in order to deal with such a situation?

it is already been taught. A diver can end a dive and do a safety stop at any point on the dive for any reason. If the only dive buddy you have refuses to ascend then you you ascend and do the safety stop and wait on the surface. If the buddy wants to continue the dive as a solo dive and not follow procedure to look for his dive buddy after 1 minute and ascend to the surface then that person has no concern for you anyway.