Computer instead of Dive Table?

[Tanked Monkey]

Maybe I worded something incorrectly before. I dont' want to give SDI a bad rap.

This thread got sidetracked a while ago when we started debating the safety of blindly following a DM. I don't think anyone has a problem with SDI. What we may have a problem with is: learning to depend on a computer, then not using one on a dive (nor tables). This can lead to blindly following a DM, or some other un-safe way of planning/executing a dive. Of course, we're not saying that you would do that, but there are tons of divers out there that do. This discussion has become more philosophical in nature.

Also, my husband and I are going through this together so whatever we buy, we have to buy two of.....and we already spent a boat load on personal gear.

I was recently certified (May 04), with my wife and we had to buy 2 of everything as well. At first, I though the personal gear was expensive (few hundred $ each), but then started pricing everything else. I don't want to scare you, but personal gear is just the tip of the iceberg. Now we both own full gear, and I'm very glad we do. But it took us almost a year (and a few thousand $ later) to un-pucker to the cost. We bought slowly, using whatever deals/packages we could, while still getting high-quality equip. I'm sure you've already seen that this forum is a great place to look for equipment recommendations, when that time comes. Oops, maybe I'm sidetracking this conversation

Mike

 

[Stirling]

Also, I dont' think I am going to buy a dive computer anytime soon. I haven't even been on my first real dive yet. I know I am going to love Scuba diving but what if I end up hating it? Also, my husband and I are going through this together so whatever we buy, we have to buy two of.....and we already spent a boat load on personal gear. I'll wait and see how much I can go diving and then I will think about investing in more equipment. Also, I have no idea what brands of equipment is good and what isn't. I would hate to go buy some computer that sucks because I am a newbie and didn't know better.

These are common problems. One of my partners has been diving regularly for about 20 years and still doesn't own a computer. There are some good reasons for using a computer for recreational diving, but you can get along perfectly well without one, and using the tables can keep you from falling into the trap of just "doing what the computer says" without thinking about it.

Good equipment can be expensive, and everybody tries to avoid buying the same stuff five times while they figure out and eventually get what they really want. I think it's a good idea to be patient about buying, and to ask around and rent for a while before you decide what you want and get it. The other thing I would bear in mind, though, is that rentals can add up.

Buying gear from your LDS and then selling it on e-Bay is the same thing as renting that gear for the time you own it, except that the rental rate varies a lot depending on how much you used it and how much of your money you got back when you sold it. If you're diving infrequently, rent. If you start diving frequently, and you buy things that are highly recommended (and desired) by other divers, it is pretty hard to go wrong, because you can always sell it and get back *some* of your money, and count the difference as rental.

I think you'll know pretty quickly whether you really are going to love diving, but then be honest with yourself about how much diving you will actually be able to do. (The marinas of the world are filled with idle boats owned by people who were going to spend every weekend on the water, and for some reason never manage to do it.) If you dive infrequently, you can be reasonably happy and more economical using rental gear until you really are sure about what you want to buy and keep.

 

[Wijbrandus]

every new diver feels that their instructor is "very very safety conscious" but in reality in many cases it's because the new diver doesn't know any better.

Ding ding. I'm one of these people. I thought my OW instruction was "the greatest" because the instructors did a really good job of pumping up my ego and self-esteem. As a result, I've been in a situation where people could have been really hurt. It was only when I started reading ScubaBoard and diving on my own that I started learning what I didn't know.

My personal opinion is a lack of emphasis on the tables is reckless. I'm not anti-computer, but I do think people need to have a solid understanding of what is going on inside the computer so you know if/when it's passing you bum info.

On the matter of sticking with a DM for your "safety", I'd rather not. I've been in situations where following the leader who is supposed to be looking out for your safety is a quick way to get hurt. A dive where you don't know the plan and are just relying on staying near the DM to be safe is a bad idea.

It's your life. Trust no one else to manage your safety. In resort diving it's often very hard to get the DMs to take the time to go over their "plan", and then still have the time to check it yourself. Take the time anyway. The water's not going anywhere.

EDIT: Also, if you know your tables, don't get a computer right off. You won't need it for <60FSW diving, and you will want to gain experience with real diving before you pick what features you want and need. I've got 30 dives so far, and I'm only now even considering a computer (and only because of a big trip coming up). There are far more important parts of your kit that you will want and should have first.

 

[RP Diver]

Recommendation: If you aren't prepared to buy a computer immediately (or in the case of Blue Blur 2 computers :11: ), then I still think it's a good idea to rent one for a trip, just to get a feel for the differences in computer vs. table diving.

The computer is not a substitute for the dive tables. It is an enhancement of them. If you aren't comfortable with using the tables, you shouldn't be breathing compressed air underwater. But there is nothing wrong with formulating a plan on the tables, then doing the dive according to the DM instructions (which is usually a max depth for a max time and a minimum ending air pressure) and following a computer, and comparing the two results.

 

[triton94949]

I'm curious as to why you think NAUI instructors are teaching diving without tables? What have you seen? What do you know? Thanks for your answer.
Neil

NAUI instructors are required to teach using tables. The new NAUI tables are actually quite easy to use compared with USN tables or modified USN tables (older NAUI and SSI tables).

A really proficient instructor will teach you to understand the tables, but will exceed the standards by also teaching you methods that make you table independent as well.

Some of these really proficient instructors use methods they have determined based on their own experience, whereas others have adopted GUE methods from additional GUE training. That is what I have seen.

 

[neil]

NAUI instructors are required to teach using tables. The new NAUI tables are actually quite easy to use compared with USN tables or modified USN tables (older NAUI and SSI tables).

A really proficient instructor will teach you to understand the tables, but will exceed the standards by also teaching you methods that make you table independent as well.

Some of these really proficient instructors use methods they have determined based on their own experience, whereas others have adopted GUE methods from additional GUE training. That is what I have seen.

Triton,
Thanks for the reply. Just wanted to be clear that NAUI does not endorse dive planning without tables anywhere along the line, even into Tech. As to the second sentence above, I can't imagine why a diver would ever need to be table independent, whether computer-generated or plastic. I mean, what's the issue here? Plastic melt-down? It might be a nifty thing to be able to do, but not essential.
Whether or not a really proficient instructor teaches table "independence" is a matter of opinion, in MY opinion.

 

[DiveMaven]

Recommendation: If you aren't prepared to buy a computer immediately (or in the case of Blue Blur 2 computers :11: ), then I still think it's a good idea to rent one for a trip, just to get a feel for the differences in computer vs. table diving.

The computer is not a substitute for the dive tables. It is an enhancement of them. If you aren't comfortable with using the tables, you shouldn't be breathing compressed air underwater. But there is nothing wrong with formulating a plan on the tables, then doing the dive according to the DM instructions (which is usually a max depth for a max time and a minimum ending air pressure) and following a computer, and comparing the two results.

I have to say that I agree 100%. When my DH and I were checking out shops for our certification, we went into a shop that did SSI training. When the instructor told us they do not teach tables and instead issue their students computers to use, my DH and I practically ran out of the shop! Yes, we bought our own computers after we got certified, and feel that they are an extremely valuable tool when we dive, however, we also feel strongly that you have to know the basics first. To us it's like teaching a 1st grader to use a calculator instead of learning their math facts. There comes a point at which the daily use of a calculator for math problems becomes easier, but there should be a foundation of understanding of what the calculator is doing for you.

When we dive, we have both the tables and our computers with us, and use both.

 

[lorien]

Personally I do not rely on my dive computer 100%. Do I use it? Absolutely, every single dive. However I plan my dive and dive my plan and I use my computer but I backup my data with my tables. Not all computers use the same tables, some are more conservative than others and some are less conservative. I just prefer to know where I am pressure group wise at the end of each dive and at the end of the dive day. And, if my computer fails, I can still dive
I remember back when I used to just go with my computer and not use my tables much, at the end of a dive on a multi dive day, group was getting ready to re-enter the water and I looked at my computer and saw a 4-5 of bars of nitrogen remaining. I brought it to dive leaders attention and was told "You'll be fine!" and I did dive. I was fine but on looking at my tables the next day I had very slightly exceeded the table limits, as we had not planned the dive (so we could not dive out plan ;-) and the dive did have some multi level aspects to it so I probably did not in fact exceed the tables but there was no way to know that. If the dive had been properly planned, etc the question would never have come up. But, that was the last time I did that, it changed my perception of how I chose to plan my dives and how I choose to dive.
And, on the concept of just following the DM, that can be a bad idea. Again, not all DM are created equal. I have seen and heard of too many times where DM's take divers below acceptable depths, etc. You are responsible for your safety in the end, check the dive yourself and make sure you stay within your own limits.

 

[BigJetDriver]

When my DH and I were checking out shops for our certification, we went into a shop where the instructor told us they do not teach tables and instead issue their students computers to use. My DH and I practically ran out of the shop! Yes, we bought our own computers after we got certified, and feel that they are an extremely valuable tool when we dive, however, we also feel strongly that you have to know the basics first. To us it's like teaching a 1st grader to use a calculator instead of learning their math facts. There comes a point at which the daily use of a calculator for math problems becomes easier, but there should be a foundation of understanding of what the calculator is doing for you.

When we dive, we have both the tables and our computers with us, and use both.

Very well put! This is the way it should be for all students learning diving, bar none!

 

[616fun]

KNOW THE TABLES!
If you stay motivated about diving, you'll need to know how to use them. I recently took the Enriched Air Nitrox course and guess what, 90% of that class is learning to use tables to plan an enriched air dive. I was amazed that half the class was confused about using a table.

I alway log my dives with info from the tables. That makes me use them everytime I dive, whether I want to or not.