Collective instruction

[vjongene]

I have seen many threads here stressing the importance of the instructor over the agency. I haven't been able to find any discussing a slightly different approach, that of "collective" teaching. Please point me to the relevant thread(s) if I am rehashing old stuff.

I am a member of a club, which is affiliated with a national Federation, which is itself part of CMAS. One of the missions of the club, at least as we see it, is to train new divers, who may later become club members and dive with us. There are two club members with instructor certification. Most other members (about twenty) are two- or three-star divers who dive together on a regular basis.

Every 18 months or so, the club organizes a full training schedule for new recruits. Class size is normally 6-8. We take both complete newbies and divers with an existing OW certification. The training runs for about 6 months, with 10 dives for the OW (one star) part, and 15-20 dives for the two star certification. Most dives are on Sunday mornings, with a few additional ones on Saturday afternoons. We insist that all students try for the full training and do not stop at one star. There are 15 two-hour class sessions, held on week nights. The curriculum is standard CMAS, with a heavy emphasis on safety and rescue skills.

One of the instructors is in charge of the course, and monitors all of the students' progress. He also decides when a student has demonstrated skill levels that allow him/her to receive a C-card, and is responsible towards the Federation for the quality of the instruction.

The originality is in the organization of the teaching. For the classroom sessions, the instructor gives the general introduction, and then several club members talk about the topics that they know best. The instructor is present, to ensure that everything in the curriculum is covered, and that there are no errors. Discussions between the presenter, the student and the instructor are frequent.

For the dives, there is always one instructor present (not necessarily the one in charge of the whole course). He gives the pre-dive briefing, and the explanations regarding the skills to be practiced. There are normally as many club members present as there are students. Each student makes the dive with one member, who demonstrates the skills and then watches the student. This ensures that each student has a "private" teacher during each dive. It also exposes the student to different styles and personalities, and prepares him/her to dive with different buddies. After the dive, there is a de-briefing between the student and his buddy, between the buddy and the instructor, and a general summary by the instructor.

Nobody gets paid for his or her work. The students pay a fee that covers equipment rentals, administrative costs, course materials, and a voucher to join the club's yearly dive outing to the south of France. This avoids the problem of taking too much business away from commercial shops in the area.

This type of instruction is clearly not for everyone. It requires a commitment from the students over a relatively long period. Given the climate and dive conditions in Switzerland it also pre-supposes some resistance to discomfort. But my experience is that most students who finish the course (there are always a few that opt out or flunk) are very happy with their training, and become reliable buddies afterwards. I also believe that having been exposed to a variety of divers/DMs/instructors during their training, they have a broader view of the sport, and may have a leg-up on their way to becoming truly good divers.

There are many clubs, in Europe at least, where this type of instruction is practiced. I am curious to know if it is also common elsewhere, and to have the feedback of instructors who may have different views of what constitutes a proper way to train students.

Victor J.

 

[Diver0001]

....snip....

There are many clubs, in Europe at least, where this type of instruction is practiced. I am curious to know if it is also common elsewhere, and to have the feedback of instructors who may have different views of what constitutes a proper way to train students.

Victor J.

I had never heard of the CMAS until I moved to Europe. In the Netherlands, where I live now, the local CMAS affiliate (the NOB) approaches training in more or less the same way you do. In Belgium, the Nelos, also a CMAS affiliate, has a slightly different approach (perhaps a little macho-culture related) and their safety record is absolutely appalling. I've also been diving with BSAC divers and have a general idea of their approach which seems to include more of a club hierarchy than I see in the Netherlands.

On the whole I'd say the NOB divers I know look about the same in the water as the Dutch PADI divers I know with comparable amounts of experience. The same thing applied (much to my surprise) to the BSAC divers I met. I say much to my surprise because I alway had the impression the the BSAC had the best training available but I sure couldn't see it in the skills. I think part of the "problem" insofar that you can speak of a problem is that the CMAS training hierarchy keeps people feeling more insecure about their skills for a longer time. Also the training takes so long that some divers start really believing that diving is incredibly difficult and then they start making it difficult for themselves. Naturally not everyone reacts like this and I've seen many examples, also on Scubaboard, of divers who took great pride in being CMAS trained and had clearly developed a great level of confidence due to the thoroughness of the training.

I work for a PADI dive centre and the CMAS divers we get are generally disenchanted by how long the training takes. I know, for example, someone who has been working for over 2 years to get his 3 star. Another friend of mine spent an incredible 8 months (nearly 100 hours) in the pool before they let her dive in open water and when they finally did let her dive in OW they told her she knew nothing and hung her on a buddy line for her own safety.....This probably isn't a fair comparison because obviously these people are dissatisfied with the CMAS but I do have the distinct impression that the training could be shortened and the students could be more empowered without sacrificing quality.

R..

 

[Bretagne]

To train in the pool for a long time is not necessarily due to a lack of confidence (from divers of teachers). In my case, it is because we live too far from any openwater possibility, sea or quarry, so there is no need to hurry and we are taught some out standard things. But when people say : "I need my 1* card for holidays at this date we adapt the training so that they get it.

 

[vjongene]

To train in the pool for a long time is not necessarily due to a lack of confidence (from divers of teachers). In my case, it is because we live too far from any openwater possibility, sea or quarry, so there is no need to hurry and we are taught some out standard things. But when people say : "I need my 1* card for holidays at this date we adapt the training so that they get it.

I should add that we do not do any pool sessions at all. The first dives are just in shallow water on a gentle sandy slope. We do give the one-star cards, but expect the students not to stop there...

 

[vjongene]

----snip-----

I work for a PADI dive centre and the CMAS divers we get are generally disenchanted by how long the training takes. I know, for example, someone who has been working for over 2 years to get his 3 star. Another friend of mine spent an incredible 8 months (nearly 100 hours) in the pool before they let her dive in open water and when they finally did let her dive in OW they told her she knew nothing and hung her on a buddy line for her own safety.....This probably isn't a fair comparison because obviously these people are dissatisfied with the CMAS but I do have the distinct impression that the training could be shortened and the students could be more empowered without sacrificing quality.

While the length of the training period may indeed be a problem, I have not run into any lack of empowerment or hierarchical behavior in our club or others I know. 100 hours of pool sessions is ridiculous, even for a "problem" student. As I said in another post we do not include any pool time at all... Getting a 3-star certification is mostly through independent training, so that the time it takes depends very much on how often you dive. You are required to acquire and practice skills independently, and they are then reviewed by an instructor. The average 3-star training takes 6 months to 1 year, if you are diving on a regular basis (about 1 dive a week).

I agree that in the long run your training agency doesn't have much influence on determining how good a diver you are. This is IMHO mostly influenced by who you are. For myself, I do appreciate the training I received, which has occasionally helped me get out of sticky situations, and has endowed me with a set of buddies I feel comfortable with. BTW, much of what I learned was diving with said buddies after I got my C-card.

 

[saying]

A bunch of European mumbo-jumbo.

Damn socialists.

 

[String]

Also the training takes so long that some divers start really believing that diving is incredibly difficult and then they start making it difficult for themselves. R..

On a related note instruction to student ratio also has a big effect on the quality of training. An identical skillset can be taught thoroughly and to a better standard with a 1:1 ratio compared to a 1:4 for example.

Going from that even identical syllabus' or very similar between different agencies are taught to a different standard not only depending on instructor quality and ratio.

The basic course here has 5 sheltered water (pool) lessons that are typically done 1 per 1hr pool session so thats 5 weeks in most clubs (who have pool access for 1hr per week).

We have 7 x 1hr lectures followed by a multiple choice theory exam (35 questions i think, pass 80%).

We then have 5 open water dives with exercises required to become certified.

In addition to this there is a skillset of various conditions, boat sizes,drifts etc of which the student needs to have experienced at least 4 out of the 8. Finally a minimum of 120 minutes underwater.

If rushing through in a class type environment this could probably be done on 3 weekends or similar but in a club environment this isnt the case.

Pool training here usually takes 2 months with a instructor to student ratio of 1:2 (1:3 very rarely) with less confident getting 1:1. The lectures are done 1 per week after that. More pool sessions in following weeks are available if needed.

When it gets to open water diving the ratio is 1:1 but unlike some agencies the local instructor and officers are allowed to add,alter the training provided at least all of the listed exercises are completed. The way it tends to work is students are taken on real dive taking some time out on them to do some exercises on each of them. This is less tedious and gets them real dive experience as well as the skills needed.

By the time they qualify most people tend to have between 15 and 20 dives.

I like the training standards and attention to detail but the downside is you wont learn in a hurry, typically here you'll start in September/October and qualify around about the following June. Good training? Yes. Suited for a holiday resort? Nope.