Collapse of the "Buddy System"

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

False. Unpredictable irrationality is a factor of any system involving other human beings...

And rationality is just as equally a factor. Over a sufficient length ot time/dives I agree. Most people, most of the time, are rational. But, given the vast amount of dives I've done with rational average level skills B diving is OK.
 
And rationality is just as equally a factor. Over a sufficient length ot time/dives I agree. Most people, most of the time, are rational. But, given the vast amount of dives I've done with rational average level skills B diving is OK.

So if you're hitting baseballs, you're golden.

By any chance to you ever fly on commercial airplanes ? :dork2:
 
moderator_catch_snarky(THIS_POST,off)

Somewhere at an undisclosed quarry two divers emerge from the still water. They get out of their kit and sit down at the picnic table. They are greeted by one of the staff (Bill).

Hi Joe. How was the diving? Hey, I thought you were strictly a solo diver? Are you getting back into buddy diving?

No, but I thought I would try it again. The dive was OK I guess [looking somewhat dejected].

You don't sound to happy.

Well, it was just OK. It seems I do all of the work. My buddy never seems to acknowledge my signals. I have to check his air. I have to watch his buoyancy. He seems unattentive to my needs. He use to wander off but since we agreed to use a tether, he sticks real close to me now. I'll say one thing. He has great air consumption....I'm usually the one to turn and later end the dive.

Bill walks over and says hi to the buddy but the buddy seems to ignore him. [Extending a hand] I'm sorry we haven't met. My name's Bill. The buddy says nothing. He repeats the introduction. Again, the buddy ignores him. Bill notices something odd. The buddy appears a little stiff and hasn't moved. Moving a little closer Bill gasps, "Your buddy, oh my god!!!".

[In an annoying tone of voice] What!? [And with a resigned tone says] Oh, my buddy is not being rude he's just the quiet type.

But your buddy!!! He's......he's a corpse!!!

Well of course he is. You don't think I would go diving with a live buddy do you? After all, a live buddy who can think for himself might actually help me. He might get me out of entanglements I can't get out of. He might correct my bad judgement and false assumptions. He might even argue with me like that PITA EFX on Scubaboard. Why would I want that?!!!

So, does this mean you'll continue to dive with him?

I don't think so. In the beginning it was OK. But he's beginning to smell bad. I've told him to take a bath but he doesn't listem to me. And I'm getting tired of using up all my extra bandwidth watching over him when we dive. No, I don't think so. I'm going back to solo diving.

OK. Well good luck with that. [Bill walks back to the office shaking his head in disbelief].

moderator_catch_snarky(THIS_POST,on)
 
Last edited:
moderator_catch_snarky(THIS_POST,off)

Somewhere at an undisclosed quarry two divers emerge from the still water. They get out of their kit and sit down at the picnic table. They are greeted by one of the staff (Bill).

Hi Joe. How was the diving? Hey, I thought you were strictly a solo diver? Are you getting back into buddy diving?

No, but I thought I would try it again. The dive was OK I guess [looking somewhat dejected].

You don't sound to happy.

Well, it was just OK. It seems I do all of the work. My buddy never seems to acknowledge my signals. I have to check his air. I have to watch his buoyancy. He seems unattentive to my needs. He use to wander off but since we agreed to use a tether, he sticks real close to me now. I'll say one thing. He has great air consumption....I'm usually the one to turn and later end the dive.

Bill walks over and says hi to the buddy but the buddy seems to ignore him. [Extending a hand] I'm sorry we haven't met. My name's Bill. The buddy says nothing. He repeats the introduction. Again, the buddy ignores him. Bill notices something odd. The buddy appears a little stiff and hasn't moved. Moving a little closer Bill gasps, "Your buddy, oh my god!!!".

[In an annoying tone of voice] What!? [And with a resigned tone says] Oh, my buddy is not being rude he's just the quiet type.

But your buddy!!! He's......he's a corpse!!!

Well of course he is. You don't think I would go diving with a live buddy do you? After all, a live buddy who can think for himself might actually help me. He might get me out of entanglements I can't get out of. He might correct my bad judgement and false assumptions. He might even argue with me like that PITA EFX on Scubaboard. Why would I want that?!!!

So, does this mean you'll continue to dive with him?

I don't think so. In the beginning it was OK. But he's beginning to smell bad. I've told him to take a bath but he doesn't listem to me. And I'm getting tired of using up all my extra bandwidth watching over him when we dive. No, I don't think so. I'm going back to solo diving.

OK. Well good luck with that. [Bill walks back to the office shaking his head in disbelief].

moderator_catch_snarky(THIS_POST,on)

What ever happened to your "systems analysis"??? Shouldn't we feel honored that you bring such real world experience?
Now you're creating stories to attempt to make a point?

Forgive me, what was the point again?/?
 
Forgive me, what was the point again?/?

I didn't really get his point either. But i chuckled, so the post was good for something :)


--
Sent from my Android phone
Typos are a feature, not a bug
 
... and with that, I think we should change the title of this thread to "Demise of the Buddy System" ... :wink:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Do you really do deco dives ...

Me? - I don't think so.

---------- Post added October 11th, 2014 at 09:59 AM ----------

... If that's the case, I'd have to say you're doing a really poor job of choosing dive buddies ...

and

The impression those reasons convey is that you have never experienced diving with a competent dive buddy before ... which says less about the system than it does about the way you've implemented it ...

Impressions are not fact. I have experienced good dive buddies. Even diving with them imposes constraints that I prefer (PREFER) not to be burdened with.

And, "the way I've implemented it" ?????? I have no control over "buddies" that take off on their own, ignore my calling a dive, etc. - all of which have happened. I make sure that I am completely self-sufficient because I'm never sure what a "buddy" might do.

---------- Post added October 11th, 2014 at 10:07 AM ----------

The division of the merits of buddy (B) vs. solo (S) diving into the categories of a system (SYS) and its implementation (IMP) is interesting. I'd like to analyze some of the arguments within the framework of these categories. We need to level the playing field. To eliminate all the IMP level problems with B diving we'll assume you and your buddy are equal and do all the required things needed to implement a fully functional buddy team. Looking at the dive styles from a system POV I hope to eliminate some of the emotional bias that distorts an objective viewpoint. Most of what I present here is not new; Others in this thread have already said it.

From S diving POV:

Let's take the issue of an alternate air supply. Some have argued that this is an advantage for S diving over B. To level the playing field let's give each diver in the B pair their own alternate air souces. [You may object, saying this isn't done in the real world. But, were evaluating based on the system and not on what actually happens which is IMP.] What appears to be an advantage in S disappears.

Solitude. Another advantage in S diving. Can we add solitude to B diving. No, by definition B diving requires communication between the B pair. Solitude remains an advantage.

Less bandwidth [SIC] equals less effort over B diving therefore an advantage. So we're on the same page [mental] bandwidth is the amount and effort of thinking about your buddy which includes but is not limited to communication, position, welfare, etc. Obviously, it remains an advantage but a trivial one. Think of all the small tasks you do every day from the time you wake up in the morning to the time you arrive at work (get out of bed, walk to the bathroom, go to the bathroom, brush your teeth, wash your face, get dressed, eat breakfast, etc. I haven't even got to driving to work yet.) This is a at least a 1000 times more than what you do with your buddy underwater. If you can't manage the relatively few underwater tasks, how in the world do you get through your day?

From B diving POV:

Additional awareness. An advantage for B diving? Can we add someone to S. No, based on the definition of S diving. B diving retains advantage.

Additional brain. An advantage for B diving? Same as above.

Additional hands. An advantage for B diving? Same as above.

All the problems associated with the B system can be corrected by correct implementation. For example, a common complaint is your buddy swims away leaving you alone. This is solved by reinstructing your buddy or getting a new buddy. The same approach can be used to solve virtually all the buddy problems.

Where does this leave us? As a system buddy diving is clearly superior and this is why virtually every source I've read favors B diving over S diving. The dive plan sometimes dictates the choice of dive system. Photographers might prefer S over B. Cave divers will prefer B over S.

Total bushwah. Every source you read? You believe everything you read. "They can't put anything on the internet (or anywhere else) that isn't true". In addition, your "logical" constructs are total BS. Go blow smoke out yer arse somewhere else. "Cave Divers????? Whoopie Dingle. We talkin bout reglr divrs heh.

---------- Post added October 11th, 2014 at 10:14 AM ----------

moderator_catch_snarky[CURRENT_POST,off)
And when you have that mild stroke who's going to haul up your sorry *ss from the bottom of the ocean?

My reply is - I don't care. When It's my time I'd rather die underwater than anyplace else. I'm ready to go. I watched my Mom die a horrible slow death trapped in a hospital bed and watched my Dad have a peaceful passing. They are both dead. Someday I will be too. BFD.
 
Last edited:
Collapse of the buddy system, might as well toss in the collapse of civilization, they both stem from the overwhelming need for instant gratification. I want what I want when I want it, is in direct opposition to planning and executing a dive as a buddy pair or team.

Now that SCUBA is a safe sport, the training is online, then pool session with one instructor, and a referral to another instructor for open water dives. Tell me who in that list is going to spend the time to know each student and insure they understand the importance of buddy diving, or the mitigation necessary to dive alone? Divers are taught the basics of buddy diving in OW, however it takes time to actually get good at it and an awful lot of divers have a different agenda for their time underwater. Occasionally it turns out that working on buddy skills would have been a better idea.

The new divers I have insta-buddied with, seem to be OK once I get them to quit trying to follow me like I'm an instructor or DM. Their training seems to encourage them to be a passive follower rather than an active participant in the buddy team. It is not that they don't have the knowledge to be a buddy, they just see another method used in training and that is what they emulate.

The buddy system was taught much better when I started diving however, the Solo, Same Day Same Ocean Buddies, and the self indulgent d**ks were all in the water as well. Point being, they knew how to, and could be actually of assistance if they were around. I am not sure if that is as true today.




Bob
------------------------------------------------------
That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.
 
My experience is that I cannot control the behavior of another person.

I like the way you put it. In theory, you can control the behavior of another person, since you have control over the process of selecting that person, and if you buddy up, e.g., with a GUE diver, a Trimix diver, a cave diver, or an instructor, there is a high chance that they will follow certain procedures. On the other hand, in practice, for most of us, our experience with this hasn't been great. Frustrated by this experience, some people have chosen to go solo. Does it mean that, being able to always find a predictable buddy is something that is only true in theory, whereas in real life, something always tends to get in the way? Or is it that many of us simply can't be bothered to put in the effort to have a predictable buddy for the dive, and choose to get solo training and dive this way as the simplest, and most effortless way of mitigating some (or, maybe most) of the major risks? A lot of the posters clearly expressed this sentiment: they acknowledge that they could probably make it work, but they feel it's just too much of a PITA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EFX
Frustrated by this experience, some people have chosen to go solo. Does it mean that, being able to always find a predictable buddy is something that is only true in theory, whereas in real life, something always tends to get in the way? Or is it that many of us simply can't be bothered to put in the effort to have a predictable buddy for the dive, and choose to get solo training and dive this way as the simplest, and most effortless way of mitigating some (or, maybe most) of the major risks? A lot of the posters clearly expressed this sentiment: they acknowledge that they could probably make it work, but they feel it's just too much of a PITA.

There's another set of variables that bear on how people decide these things; their attitude toward having a buddy, and toward diving alone. For example, ask yourself what your attitude/taste/preference is toward:

1.) Diving with a buddy. Do you do this because you enjoy it, or because you need a risk mitigator and think this is the best form? People people who enjoy social actives aren't going to think quite like introverts. Some people would mostly buddy dive if there were no risk issue, just as some people seldom go to movie theaters alone, amusement parks alone, etc...

2.) What's your attitude toward diving alone (whether in recommended solo gear with independent gas source, etc...) or just regular gear either alone or your buddy swims off, but conditions are very good? Do you believe such diving is 'too dangerous' or a slippery slope you don't want to get on, or are you comfortable with it? Do you perhaps like it, preferring to dive by your own whim and preference and not bother monitoring a buddy?

Your views on the above are going to impact whether you think the hassles of finding and traveling with good buddies, or trying to get an insta-buddy up to snuff, are a worthwhile investment or 'too much of a PITA.'

Richard.
 

Back
Top Bottom