Cold water Wing lift - again

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I use a 40 DS diving, according to my math I need it, could be wrong but don't think so. It's an Oxy and is quite streamlined, long and narrow. I frog kick, I'm not trying to go fast. I do find it doesn't vent quite as easy as my 30 and no where as easy as my 18. I'm still working on my DS weighting as I appear to need quite a lot of lead to sink. I wear heavy undergarments as I feel the cold. It's currently 22 at my local and I'm chilling after 40 in my two piece 7mm so am already in my Drysuit. Seems as I get older I'm feeling the cold more. Perhaps I need to eat more.

---------- Post added October 18th, 2015 at 09:50 PM ----------

Yeah look at all that drag and poor trim...

Blue32.jpg


PS - any given air bubble will be precisely the same size whether it's in a 30lb wing or a 40lb wing. (eg: a liter of air in a 30lb wing is still only a liter of air if it's in a 40lb wing)

That's some nice looking water, my local is more often than not brown.
 
Hi

Thanks to everyone for the great advice and different perspectives. I'll definitely get in to the water with the wings before making a decision - it sounds like a lot of it boils down to personal preference (i.e. while the minimum lift can actually be quite low, the "best" lift depends largely on the diver). I'm leaning towards a 35lb, which gives me a good margin compared to my calculated requirements - but I won't know for sure until I get a few dives in with each type of wing.

Once again, thank you people for all your inputs.
 
Hi

I have heard and read a lot about the "right" wing lift choices (including using the calculator), and I've got so much conflicting advice that I thought I'd just ask what wing should I get. My choices are a 28 lb, 35lb, and 40 lb one.

Currently, I'm diving in a wetsuit (7mm two piece - 14 at core), with a BCD, 20 lb. weights, and steel 100 tanks (-12 lb full, -5 lb empty buoyancy)

I'm moving to a BP/W setup (getting weight off my waist), and I plan to go drysuit in a while (though I expect to dive wet in a BP/W for a few more months at least). I also plan on going the Tech route - just to give you an idea on my future scope.

My calculations show that (worst case): I jump in with a full tank, go to 120 feet immediately, and need to compensate for my (roughly 7lb air + 15 lb suit compression): a 22 lb wing should do.
The lift to float my gear without me (at the start of the dive) is 12lb (full tank)+ 6lb backplate + a little extra (4 lb) i.e. 22 pounds.

The lift calculator, on the other hand, tells me I need a 25 lb wing (and no weight!!).

A couple of people (much more experienced than me) have told me I'd need at least a 30, and maybe closer to 40 lb lift.

I am not sure which choice is right. I believe my 20# lead is accurate from weight testing (not sure why the calculator tells me I need no weight - does my jacket bcd give me 16 lb lift when empty?

So the question is (keeping in mind future changes like dry suit and tech plans): do I get a 28 lb wing, or a 35 lb one, or 40 lb one?

Thank you

Forgive me if others have made these points. My eyes cross trying to read all the posts.

Any BC needs to meet two criteria: Be able to float your rig if you ditch it, and be able to compensate for the maximum possible change in buoyancy of your exposure suit.

Almost always in cold water the buoyancy of the divers exposure suit dictates the minimum require wing lift.

How buoyant is your 2 piece 7mm suit? Nearly zero divers know the answer. To test your suit roll it up being careful to avoid trapping a big air bubble in it and trow it in the water. Add lead until it just sinks. Weigh the lead. (scuba weights can be in accurately marked)

Pick a wing with at least this much buoyancy.

Keep in mind that divers use Buoyancy Compensators to Compensate for things that lose buoyancy as your descend, and that's pretty much only your exposure suit.

Personal buoyancy will impact total ballast requirements but *does not* need to be compensated for as it does not change WRT to depth.

While it is possible that your 2 piece 7mm suit may be quite buoyant vanishingly few wetsuits are more than 30 lbs positive.

Tobin
 
Forgive me if others have made these points. My eyes cross trying to read all the posts.

Any BC needs to meet two criteria: Be able to float your rig if you ditch it, and be able to compensate for the maximum possible change in buoyancy of your exposure suit.

Almost always in cold water the buoyancy of the divers exposure suit dictates the minimum require wing lift.

How buoyant is your 2 piece 7mm suit? Nearly zero divers know the answer. To test your suit roll it up being careful to avoid trapping a big air bubble in it and trow it in the water. Add lead until it just sinks. Weigh the lead. (scuba weights can be in accurately marked)

Pick a wing with at least this much buoyancy.

Keep in mind that divers use Buoyancy Compensators to Compensate for things that lose buoyancy as your descend, and that's pretty much only your exposure suit.

Personal buoyancy will impact total ballast requirements but *does not* need to be compensated for as it does not change WRT to depth.

While it is possible that your 2 piece 7mm suit may be quite buoyant vanishingly few wetsuits are more than 30 lbs positive.

Tobin

I like the simplicity of your method.. you are assuming 100% compression of the wetsuit, which is conservative, but you seem to be neglecting the weight of the gas in the tank. If it is an 80, it's not a big deal, but with a 120 or larger tank, shouldn't the weight of the gas in the tank(s) be included somewhere?
 
I like the simplicity of your method.. you are assuming 100% compression of the wetsuit, which is conservative, but you seem to be neglecting the weight of the gas in the tank. If it is an 80, it's not a big deal, but with a 120 or larger tank, shouldn't the weight of the gas in the tank(s) be included somewhere?

I'm not, but I haven't the time or patience required to educate you about this again.

Tobin
 
I like the simplicity of your method.. you are assuming 100% compression of the wetsuit, which is conservative, but you seem to be neglecting the weight of the gas in the tank. If it is an 80, it's not a big deal, but with a 120 or larger tank, shouldn't the weight of the gas in the tank(s) be included somewhere?

It is not clear why you should worry about compensating for the weight of the gas in the tank. It only gets lighter as the dive progresses and the used air gets exhaled into the water. To be able to hold a safety stop with an empty tank at 15 ft the diver is going to be overweighted at the start of the dive by the weight of the gas. Although some of the extra weight could be negated by wetsuit compression at 15 ft.

The weight of the tank and air is included when calculating how much weight is needed and how much lift a diver needs to float the rig without him in it.
 
It is not clear why you should worry about compensating for the weight of the gas in the tank. It only gets lighter as the dive progresses and the used air gets exhaled into the water. To be able to hold a safety stop with an empty tank at 15 ft the diver is going to be overweighted at the start of the dive by the weight of the gas. Although some of the extra weight could be negated by wetsuit compression at 15 ft.

The weight of the tank and air is included when calculating how much weight is needed and how much lift a diver needs to float the rig without him in it.

Well this method of "sinking the wetsuit" was something I had never heard before. Seemed like a more simplistic approach and for which I was seeking clarification. I do acknowledge that wetsuit compression at depth is a big deal and people don't seem to have have quantified it for themselves, even though it is the most important factor. In my experience with thick, muti-layer suits.. the compression can generate around 25 lbs roughly - which is more than I think many people realize.

Why consider, the mass of the air in the tank? If you are wearing a tank that is 10 lbs negative at depth (mostly from the air it contains when full), then I would think that you would want the BC to compensate for this extra weight which is present when initially reaching the maximum depth of the dive. Since "full tank and fully compressed suit at depth" is the critical or worst case scenario that must be accommodated.

If a diver is wearing a weight belt and not a heavy plate or additional "integrated" weights on the BC, then the lift capacity required to float the tank and BC at the surface is going to be like 10-15 lbs... which, as he describes, is not the limiting factor..
 
Tobin has been recommending sinking the wetsuit for years. Although I also would double check the buoyancy of the hood, gloves, and booties. Another thing is that if using a pool the buoyancy needs to be adjusted for salt water.

The weight of the tank and air is included when figuring out the weighting needed for the dive. A tank that is 10 lbs negative on the surface is also 10 lbs negative at depth. Tanks and the air inside are not compressible.

As an example, lets have a neutral diver wearing wetsuit that is + 25 lbs. on the surface. To offset the weight he uses a tank that is - 10 lbs when full and - 15 lbs of other weight. So on the surface he is neutral (+25-10-15=0). if the diver descends to 130 ft then he is under about 5 atm of pressure. The suit is now (25 / 5 = 5) 5 lbs positive so he needs to add 20 lbs of buoyancy to the wing to remain neutral. As the dive goes on he needs to vent air from the wing because he is using the air in the tank and the tank is becoming more buoyant. So assuming that he is not picking up articles from the bottom or diving deeper, the most lift needed would be 20 lbs. If he dives deeper he would need a larger wing but theoretically no more than 25 lbs, the amount of buoyancy of the suit.
 
Tobin has been recommending sinking the wetsuit for years. Although I also would double check the buoyancy of the hood, gloves, and booties. Another thing is that if using a pool the buoyancy needs to be adjusted for salt water.

The weight of the tank and air is included when figuring out the weighting needed for the dive. A tank that is 10 lbs negative on the surface is also 10 lbs negative at depth. Tanks and the air inside are not compressible.

As an example, lets have a neutral diver wearing wetsuit that is + 25 lbs. on the surface. To offset the weight he uses a tank that is - 10 lbs when full and - 15 lbs of other weight. So on the surface he is neutral (+25-10-15=0). if the diver descends to 130 ft then he is under about 5 atm of pressure. The suit is now (25 / 5 = 5) 5 lbs positive so he needs to add 20 lbs of buoyancy to the wing to remain neutral. As the dive goes on he needs to vent air from the wing because he is using the air in the tank and the tank is becoming more buoyant. So assuming that he is not picking up articles from the bottom or diving deeper, the most lift needed would be 20 lbs. If he dives deeper he would need a larger wing but theoretically no more than 25 lbs, the amount of buoyancy of the suit.


We are not talking about weighting for the dive, but rather the lift needed. In order to be neutral with an empty tank at the end of the dive, at a depth of 1 foot, the diver will need to carry extra ballast to offset the weight of the air used. If he does not, then he will float up. Proper (or minimum) weighting will make him neutral with an MT BC, and an MT tank at the surface.

So, this means that when he starts his dive, with a full tank and at a depth of zero he MUST be over-weighted by an amount exacty equal to the weight of the air in the tank.

So when he descends to 130 ft, (in zero seconds, without using any air ) :D,, what will be his buoyancy situation? The answer is ... he will be negative by an amount exactly equal to the suit compression AND the weight of air in his tank(s). So in order to establish neutral condition - the wing MUST have the capacity to offset the negative force generated by suit compression AND the weight of the gas in the tank(s).
 
We are not talking about weighting for the dive, but rather the lift needed. In order to be neutral with an empty tank at the end of the dive, at a depth of 1 foot, the diver will need to carry extra ballast to offset the weight of the air used. If he does not, then he will float up. Proper (or minimum) weighting will make him neutral with an MT BC, and an MT tank at the surface.

So, this means that when he starts his dive, with a full tank and at a depth of zero he MUST be over-weighted by an amount exacty equal to the weight of the air in the tank.

Total nonsense.

Wetsuits and drysuit undies both compress. The majority of the compression happens shallow *where the % change in ATA's are the highest.*

A diver in a thick suit diving a normal capacity single cylinder (no 149's or Heiser 190's) can effortlessly hold a 15 ft safety stop if they start the dive weighted so they are eye level with no gas in their wing and a full tank.

Their suit will compress enough from the surface to 15 ft (1.5 ata) to offset the gas in a typical single cylinder. 5-7 lbs for most tanks.

Most divers do not end their dives with empty tanks, and if that day comes they still have lung capacity to deal with small amounts of positive buoyancy.

In addition neoprene doesn't rebound instantly. That allows for easy, slow ascents from 15 ft to the surface.

Anybody that doubts a 7mm suit can lose 5-6-7 lbs from the surface to 15 ft needs to swim down to 15 ft with out adding any gas to their bc as see what happens.

The obsession among some to use their BC and not their lungs to control buoyancy shallow is not without risk.

I recommend (and have recommended for years over 100's of posts) divers in thick suits using typical single cylinders adjust their initial ballast so they are eye level at the surface with no gas in their wing and a full tank .

As long as the wing has been sized to 1) Be able to float the rig, with a full cylinder if the diver ditches it, and 2) So it provides at least as much lift as the exposure can possible loose there is no need for a larger wing.

Weighted as I describe

1) Provides the diver with 100% of the wings capacity for comfort at the surface, Only a puff is needed, but 100% is available

2) Provides 100% of the wing's capacity to assist another diver at the surface if needed.

3) Makes a total wing failure fairly trivial, remember the diver is weighted so they are eye level at the surface with no gas in their wing and a full tank. Dropping a few lbs, or using a few lbs of gas and the diver is positive at the surface even if they or their rescuer can operate the wing or the wing has failed. Contrast that with those that advocate being over weighted with larger wings. The consequences of a wing failure is hugely magnified.

Weighted as I advocate a diver that makes back to the surface can stay there with little effort even if they fail to drop ballast or add gas to their BC. Any review of recreational dive deaths will reveal that many recreational divers panic, kick to the surface, fail to drop ballast or inflate their BC, eventually tire and are found on the bottom with their weight belt on and gas in their cylinder.
Of course I fully expect that we will all now be treated to a list of tortured ( and largely false) scenarios involving rescues of grossly overweighted divers and recoveries of long lost bells from notable wrecks……..

It's so utterly predictable on Scuba Board….Tobin
 
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