The Iceni
Medical Moderator
Untill you know better than NOAA Blacknet, I would stick to their limits.
I certainly did. It would be very foolish not to. This does not mean one cannot question their reasoning.
cns clock
- Thread starter doc6464
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
I certainly did. It would be very foolish not to. This does not mean one cannot question their reasoning.
blacknet
Contributor
Hello,
If you are questioning the validity of a CNS clock then by the same logic you must also question the existance of tissue compartments and inert gas loading with in those tissues/compartments.
Ed
If you are questioning the validity of a CNS clock then by the same logic you must also question the existance of tissue compartments and inert gas loading with in those tissues/compartments.
Ed
This kind of wilfully sarcastic commentary is extremely harmful to the free exchange of ideas that we get here in the particular areas of the Board covering Dive Medicine and Decompression Practice. They are, I believe, the most critical areas of our sport.
It is almost unheard of in the dive industry to have such immediate and open access to such experts in the field as our Dr.'s Thomas and Powell. It is only their willingness to share their hard-earned information and insights that makes this possible.
As a DMT, an Instructor Trainer for IANTD, and interested researcher in the fields of dive medicine and decompression theory, I can tell you that these gentlemen are NOT telling you, or ANYONE ELSE for that matter, to ignore long-standing and proven practices.
What they ARE doing is letting you in on some of the discussions and research that are going on in both fields. Thanks to the efforts and research of people such as Dr.'s Powell, Sawatzky, Thomas, and others at LANL, DAN, DDRC, NASA, et al, things ARE changing in both of these extremely critical areas.
I would have to respectfully, but strongly suggest that it would be better to listen to, and learn from these men, rather than tossing idly flippant and barbed remarks at them. Given their backgrounds, occupations, and education, they are, IN FACT, the experts. And, yes, one in fact IS a rocket scientist!:upset:
blacknet
Contributor
First off it's not sarcastic, you are mistaken if you think that.
One thing psychology teaches us is the more educated/intelligent we become the more aware we are of our ignorance.
There was a study done at a university. The test was to see how much pain a subject would endure because the test giver wore a white coat. The results? They discovered the subject would endure great pain for no reason at all. This was a double blind test given under a false study reported to the subjects. This tells us we will accept anything that a doctor tells us with out question simply because they are stereotyped into that role by society.
However I digress, if you must know I was attempting to bring to the table some interesting feedback I have ran across while researching some similar topics.
Ed
RichLockyer
Guest
Ya, right.
My nitrox in-stroke-tor said that everything resets as soon as you take a breath of "normal" air.
blacknet
Contributor
RichLockyer once bubbled...
Ya, right.
My nitrox in-stroke-tor said that everything resets as soon as you take a breath of "normal" air.
I'm sorry you picked a bad instructor.
Ed
Okay! Your comments were not intended to be sarcastic. They just came off that way because of the way they were phrased.
Second, its a cute little story about the doctors in the white coats, but it doesn't even come close to having anything to do with the discussion at hand. I don't know about you, but I don't blindly accept what these men say. I ACCEPT what these men say because my training and education, and study in both of the respective fields tells me that they bloody well KNOW what they are talking about.
And just by the by, the only one of my instructors in both of these fields who DID wear a white coat was Dr. Richard Mader, a noted researcher in the field of hyperbaric medicine, and he only wore it during clinical hours because it was required by the hospital for which he worked. He did not, in fact cause people pain. His work, to a very great extent ALLEVIATED it.
Now yes, I do digress! You had some feedback you wanted to pass on?
Charlie99
Contributor
- Messages
- 7,966
- Reaction score
- 169
- # of dives
- 500 - 999
What did the book say, and why didn't you question the instructor?RichLockyer once bubbled...
Ya, right.
My nitrox in-stroke-tor said that everything resets as soon as you take a breath of "normal" air.
blacknet
Contributor
Hello,
This is exactly why I bring 2 books with me to every scuba class I take. The US Navy Diving Manual and the NOAA Diving Manuals. I have yet to see a case, except photography, where they did not apply or have some authorative statement on the matter. My IANTD instructor pre-approaved their use in my basic nitrox class, we did use the course material some of the time.
BigJetDriver69,
I was trying to state that the same argument, with the existance of the cns 'clock', was made in regards to the tissue compartments and loading. This has lead to a deeper and better understanding and more refined formulas today. Classic point, the gas laws, we have the 'ideal' gas laws and we have the 'real' gas laws. The 'ideal' laws derived from paper, pencil and some playing around with gases; while the 'real' laws derived from questioning and extensive field use.
Ed
Well said, Blacknet, and an excellent point! The "extensive field use" that you mention is an especially good point, since people such as Tom Mount, Dr. Richard Pyle, Tim O'Leary, and others have essentially volunteered themselves as field test subjects to find out if these ideas really do work! (They describe themselves as "crash test dummies"!)
May I suggest, if you do not have it already, the text: "Diving and Subaquatic Medicine" by Edmonds, Lowry, Pennefather, and Walker, available from Best Publlishing. It is one of my all-time favorites, and has good coverage of areas of interest such as current thinking in gas on/off-loading, mechanisms of oxygen toxicity, and DCS. There are, of course, others, but this one is especially well-written and clearly phrased.
The NOAA text is really great to have, as you have pointed out. I have both the paper version and the CD version. Another really good one is "Technical Diving in Depth" by Dr. B. R. Wienke, also from Best Publishing. I am not a mathematician but, as I told Bruce when I spoke to him recently, there is sufficient verbiage to enable one to "read around the math" and understand the material. (The reader will find, depending upon his or her background, that some of the formulae are quite understandable and are the ones we normally deal with. Some are more arcane.) He said that he put the math into the text so that it would be available for others to test its validity. I don't happen to have time available on supercomputers, as he does, to run it through, so I'll take his word for it! The premise and testing logic is certainly sound!
We are really lucky, in this day and age, because we have so many living experts who are participating in our chosen sport, doing research in it, and are sharing that information. Truly fascinating!
Similar threads
