Chumming/Baiting for Shark Dives

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I don't think you can really say it's not altering behavior, but the real issue would be whether natural behavior is altered in a harmful way, which I don't think is the case here. It's probably more of a concern for species with more elaborate learning where feeding (or passive feeding, like bears on a dump or Yogi and the picnic basket) causes a skip in training young to obtain food through hunting, turning over rocks, etc., exposing the next generation to difficulties when human-provided food doesn't appear. When I had a cabin in New Mexico, the bears were still moving through the village to visit the dump, even though it had been closed for years. Somehow, I don't see sharks suckering in to something like that. Too many other fish in the sea, so to speak. Really a very basic mode of feeding. The "see food" diet. Do sharks actually learn to hang around shipping routes with the prospects of garbage meals? Or is it just a matter of happening into a boat and remembering that they sometimes deliver?

I suppose if you get up close to feed anything bigger than a chicken, you have to figure someone's going to get bit occasionally. My dog makes a mistake sometimes, and I have known small children to whom you wouldn't want to offer a piece of wiener by hand.
 
I don't think you can really say it's not altering behavior, but the real issue would be whether natural behavior is altered in a harmful way, which I don't think is the case here. It's probably more of a concern for species with more elaborate learning where feeding (or passive feeding, like bears on a dump or Yogi and the picnic basket) causes a skip in training young to obtain food through hunting, turning over rocks, etc., exposing the next generation to difficulties when human-provided food doesn't appear. When I had a cabin in New Mexico, the bears were still moving through the village to visit the dump, even though it had been closed for years. Somehow, I don't see sharks suckering in to something like that. Too many other fish in the sea, so to speak. Really a very basic mode of feeding. The "see food" diet. Do sharks actually learn to hang around shipping routes with the prospects of garbage meals? Or is it just a matter of happening into a boat and remembering that they sometimes deliver?

I suppose if you get up close to feed anything bigger than a chicken, you have to figure someone's going to get bit occasionally. My dog makes a mistake sometimes, and I have known small children to whom you wouldn't want to offer a piece of wiener by hand.

Sharks are scavengers, all shark species like nothing more than an easy meal and what they are doing when in a shark feeding location is scavenging, it's not that sharks are exhibiting unusual or abnormal behaviour, it's humans who are doing that. It doesn't alter their behaviour any more than spear fishermen using the same location over and over again, the sharks will learn there's an easy meal there, they won't assume if a human is there that there is food, it takes more triggers to illicit an aggressive response. or example, they have been proved to be attracted to the "thump" of a spear gun and equate that sound with an easy meal but if the spearfisherman misses, the shark won't be particularly likely to become aggressive because it's a chain of events which causes an aggressive response.

Sharks have always followed boats, always...Shipping lanes and areas in which whaling and the hunting of other large marine creatures took place would aggregate sharks and in open ocean environments, pelagic sharks such as Oceanic Whitetip and Silky sharks would often follow boats for hundreds of miles.

Feeding also doesn't provide enough actual food to the sharks to alter behaviour, the amount of food actually used is really not that much.
 
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Shark behaviour is not being altered, it is perfectly natural behaviour....r.

what a load of garbage. Of course the feeding and baiting changes the shark behavoir. It makes a huge difference. It aggregates sharks into a small area and they quickly learn how to respond to the new food source.

IF THE FEEDING AND BAITING OF SHARKS WAS NOT EFFECTIVE IN ALTERING SHARK BEHAVOIR, THEN WHY WOULD THE DIVE OPERATORS DO IT?

Some of the other arguments are also ridiculous, but when you start with the premise that the activity does nothing to change the natural conditions... well you lost me...
 
Sharks are scavengers, all shark species like nothing more than an easy meal and what they are doing when in a shark feeding location is scavenging, it's not that sharks are exhibiting unusual or abnormal behaviour, it's humans who are doing that. It doesn't alter their behaviour any more than spear fishermen using the same location over and over again, the sharks will learn there's an easy meal there, they won't assume if a human is there that there is food, it takes more triggers to illicit an aggressive response. or example, they have been proved to be attracted to the "thump" of a spear gun and equate that sound with an easy meal but if the spearfisherman misses, the shark won't be particularly likely to become aggressive because it's a chain of events which causes an aggressive response.
Sharks have always followed boats, always...Shipping lanes and areas in which whaling and the hunting of other large marine creatures took place would aggregate sharks and in open ocean environments, pelagic sharks such as Oceanic Whitetip and Silky sharks would often follow boats for hundreds of miles.

Feeding also doesn't provide enough actual food to the sharks to alter behaviour, the amount of food actually used is really not that much.

So now you admit that the feeding DOES alter the behavoir (but want to back pedal now and say it is no worse than spearfishing). Spearfisherman want nothing to do with sharks. They try very, very hard NOT to feed them because the sharks WILL learn and they can also attack the spearfisherman.

The two activities are not comparable. One is TRYING to feed sharks the other is trying NOT to feed sharks. Spearfisherman will generally try to chase away a shark, act aggrressive to it and will even shoot it, if the shark appears to be engandering them.

If a bunch of sharks are attracted by spearfishing activity, most all the divers I know will get up and leave the area (for their safety and the sharks). Conversely, if a bunch of hungry sharks show up for a feeding, the operator is likely to feed them more and do everything possible to promote this artificial behavoir.

Spearfisherman are not interested in exploiting sharks for monetary gain.
 
what a load of garbage. Of course the feeding and baiting changes the shark behavoir. It makes a huge difference. It aggregates sharks into a small area and they quickly learn how to respond to the new food source.

IF THE FEEDING AND BAITING OF SHARKS WAS NOT EFFECTIVE IN ALTERING SHARK BEHAVOIR, THEN WHY WOULD THE DIVE OPERATORS DO IT?

Some of the other arguments are also ridiculous, but when you start with the premise that the activity does nothing to change the natural conditions... well you lost me...

I think you're missing the point and your final comment in your other response kind of illustrates where a lot of the negativity stems from, "exploiting sharks for monetary gain" and that's the biggest own goal in the anti-feeding argument.

I don't know how much of an understanding you have of shark behaviour but it's a subject I know a fair bit about. Yes feeding does aggregate sharks to particular areas but more often than not it is in areas where sharks have been aggregated for millions of years. Take the example of Shark Reef in Fiji, when the sharks were brought back through feeding, it actually brought a dead reef back to life to the benefit of the marine life and the people on land.

Basic shark behaviour is not changed, sharks are accepting an easy meal, it's what they do and have always done, the change in behaviour comes from the humans as it isn't natural for US to feed them, it's not them behaving any differently. There is a world of misconception about shark behaviour that gets tossed around by people with various agendas, look at what is happening in Hawaii regarding the shark feeding controversy which is based solely on complete misinformation.

You use the "exploitation of sharks for monetary gain" line but you're missing the point. Commercial and small scale shark fishing does exactly that but the difference is that shark diving requires a healthy shark population and thus promotes sustainable conservation because the money it "exploits" from sharks actually benefits thousands, sometimes millions of people, the sharks benefit, the humans benefit.

Shark feeds do not encourage sharks to view divers or free divers as possible food, anyone who thinks that does not understand shark behaviour, do sharks begin to associate boats with food? Often the answer is yes but they were doing that hundreds of years before shark feeding dives. I have dived feeding locations before and during feeding and before, there is no aggressive or overly curious behaviour exhibited at all, the few sharks become greater in number when food is presented, never once have I felt anything other than completely at ease.

People assume that in the presence of food, all sharks will become ravenous and indiscrimnate feeding machines and the fact of the matter is that in fact, that is not the case.

I didn't "backtrack" at all, I get the feeling you read what you wanted to read as a way to present your opposing opinion but you didn't base any of it with any background or evidential information.

Please explain how sharks scavenging dead fish is not normal behaviour. Is it presented in a "normal" secenario? Perhaps not but that's human behaviour being altered, not the sharks. Shark feeding in the Bahamas alone contributes $78million every year, that's $78million of sustainable conservation finance and means that governments and communities who may ordinarily look at sharks as an unsustainable fisheries source, thus causing a detrimental environmental effect on their own marine environment and a commercial venture which will end when the sharks are all gone.

Instead the money generated creates jobs, training schemes and education opportunities for local people and the businesses also pay high taxes every year to improve the communities' facilities, often in third world or low income areas.

Commercial shark diving operations are the best chance we have to secure a future for the world's sharks, forget any utopian idea you have of the world changing things for the better based on ethics, morals and environmental benefit, the fact of the matter is that if it pays it stays.
 
I think you're missing the point and your final comment in your other response kind of illustrates where a lot of the negativity stems from, "exploiting sharks for monetary gain" and that's the biggest own goal in the anti-feeding argument.


Commercial shark diving operations are the best chance we have to secure a future for the world's sharks, forget any utopian idea you have of the world changing things for the better based on ethics, morals and environmental benefit, the fact of the matter is that if it pays it stays.

I have no problem with using sharks to make money. I FULLY support the commercial and recreational harvest of sharks..


Where is your evidence to support the utopian idea that feeding sharks and artificially aggregating them will preserve them? A more reasonable position would be to promote the responsble and sustainable harvest of sharks for food and recreation. If commercial and recreational fisherman can continue to havest these creatures for money, THIS will do more to preserve the sharks than a few people baiting them.


BTW, I have no problem wiith educating people about sharks or diving with them or observing them. It is the baiting and artificial aggregation and modification of their behavoir which endangers sharks and divers which I take issue with.

We need to make people understand that sharks are a critical piece of the marine ecosystem and they need to be protected.
 
I have no problem with using sharks to make money. I FULLY support the commercial and recreational harvest of sharks..


Where is your evidence to support the utopian idea that feeding sharks and artificially aggregating them will preserve them? A more reasonable position would be to promote the responsble and sustainable harvest of sharks for food and recreation. If commercial and recreational fisherman can continue to havest these creatures for money, THIS will do more to preserve the sharks than a few people baiting them.


BTW, I have no problem wiith educating people about sharks or diving with them or observing them. It is the baiting and artificial aggregation and modification of their behavoir which endangers sharks and divers which I take issue with.

We need to make people understand that sharks are a critical piece of the marine ecosystem and they need to be protected.

So you say "We need to make people understand that sharks are a critical piece of the marine ecosystem and they need to be protected." and preceed that with "A more reasonable position would be to promote the responsble and sustainable harvest of sharks for food and recreation. If commercial and recreational fisherman can continue to havest these creatures for money, THIS will do more to preserve the sharks than a few people baiting them."

Seriously?

The best way to promote conservation is to promote recreational and commercial fishing for sharks? Absolute nonsense and bizarre "logic" at the same time, you don't conserve a species by prtomoting killing it, in the Bahamas for example, a dead shark is worth approx $150, a live shark is worth approx $15,000 every single year it's there, it hardly takes a genius to figure out which is more beneficial to both local people and the sharks themselves.

You want evidence? OK, Shark Reef in Fiji...A totally dead reef with NOTHING living there until in 1997, two divers asked the tribes permission to try and attract sharks to the area, less than ten years later the reef have exploded back into life, up to 8 different species of sharks can be present on one dive, up to 50 Bull sharks at once and all the life in the localised food chain, from top to bottom is thriving. Marine Reserve status was granted meaning no fishing at all and in the areas outside the reserve, local fishermen actually benefit from the overspill of fish from the marine reserve.

The shark diving creates hundreds of jobs, promotes local commercial growth, generates millions in tourism every year and relies on sustainable conservation of the local shark population, literally every person in the community and every marine creature in the local eco-system benefits, no accidents, responsible shark diving operation, education and it also creates money for other environmental development like the replanting of mangroves.

Yet again, it doesn't "modify" their behaviour, over 400 million years of evolution and humans think we can change that by simply encouraging natural shark behaviour of scavenging...That's the problem, human arrogance. It's utter nonsense.

It doesn't affect their feeding habits

It doesn't promote unnatural aggregation (many species disappear naturally at certain points of the year in feeding sites only to return as they would normally do) yes it can encourage aggregation of sharks but more often than not it is to areas where they would normally aggregate anyway!

It isn't dangerous for divers if done properly

And most importantly everything in the world revolves around money, I'm not implying you're naive enough to believe otherwise but when there is money to be made through keeping something alive, it means governments and businesses actively encourage conservation. Even recreational catch and release fishing for sharks is damaging because large hooks in sharks mouth often break or at least damage their jaws, there is also the stress and internal damage caused by removing sharks from the water.

It is utterly bizarre that you advocate the damage, stress and killing of sharks to aid conservation (which is totally unnatural) over the observation of totally natural shark behaviour.

Commercial shark fishing in particular benefits the few, the wealthy corporations and food processing plant owners, whereas shark diving benefits the people in the local, often poor, communities directly. If you favour commercialism and unsustainable damage then by all means, scream from the rooftops about "commercial harvesting" but if you prefer a more even benefit to a larger group of people and sustainable appreciation of our oceans top predators, then make the obvious choice of appreciating the benefit of well operated and safe shark feeding.

I still can't get my head around the bizarre logic you've used, it reminds me loosely of how the American people have been conned into thinking socialism is a bad thing and all the controversy surrounding healthcare for all supposedly being so awful!! :idk:

You advocate commercial and recreational harvesting of sharks, yeah 'cos that's worked out well so far hasn't it?...

I'm actually making a film about all of this, I'll ensure you know as soon as it's finished 'cos it sounds like you need to see it. I don't own a shark diving operation, my only concern is supporting sustainable conservation of sharks to the benefit of all so I'm not exhibiting any bias, just pointing out what is blindingly the most obvious and simple example of how to make conservation for sharks work.
 
I want sustainable fishing for sharks, sounds like you want no take of sharks. I can understand that, I just don't agree with it.

I particularly like the part where you say shark baiting is not dangerous if done the right way. What exact mistake(s) did the recent expert Jim A. make when he got bit for the second time a few weeks ago? Was it the same mistake his customer made when he died from a shark bite about 18 months ago?
 
I want sustainable fishing for sharks, sounds like you want no take of sharks. I can understand that, I just don't agree with it.

I particularly like the part where you say shark baiting is not dangerous if done the right way. What exact mistake(s) did the recent expert Jim A. make when he got bit for the second time a few weeks ago? Was it the same mistake his customer made when he died from a shark bite about 18 months ago?

Don't know, wasn't there during either incident and I only deal with facts and things I know to be true.

Can't understand why you're so keen to catch sharks, would you feel your life would be worse off if shark takes were banned? If so, that says more about you than anything to do with sharks...
 
Don't know, wasn't there during either incident and I only deal with facts and things I know to be true.

Can't understand why you're so keen to catch sharks, would you feel your life would be worse off if shark takes were banned? If so, that says more about you than anything to do with sharks...

The ability to fish, hunt, kill and eat organsism from this earth is our right and it helps to bring us closer to nature and an understanding of the various species, especially if the consumer is the one who stalks, catches, kills and cleans the organism.

Habitat destruction, pollution and over popuation are threats to the marine ecosystem, a well managed and sustainable fishery is not.

You don't know what they did wrong? I thought you said it was "safe" unless you do it "wrong". The guy is an expert with an incredible amount of experience and looses a customer, gets bit twice himself. You are unaware of any mistakes made, but you want to stand by your, off the cuff comment that shark baiting and feeding for divers is "SAFE".

I think we have ample evidence that it is less safe than not baiting them and I KNOW it changes the behavoir of sharks.
 
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