cave vs open water dpv
- Thread starter Underwater Tourist
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Boarderguy
Chief Narctopus Wrangler
Don't let the card collectors deter you. OW DPV is a pair of dives and going over failure modes. They aren't always on your elected scoot, nor are they anything more than just "here's how you avoid killing yourself" dives.
@Underwater Tourist
Lots of OW DPV trigger is best. It's even better if you have friends that scoot. You can watch them and see what they're doing well and what you might want to avoid. Learn how to stay low without leaving a trail of silt behind you. Fin position will either let the water push behind you or be directed down to the deck. I have a buddy who scoots like a seahorse and leaves a huge trail in OW. I silt up when I'm buzzing the bottom and not paying attention. My other buddy that I've helped learn and was the final push to buy one focuses on keeping his fins high and doesn't silt near as bad when he stays a bit higher than me. Go have fun with it.
You are planning for the end goal in mind. If the goal is to be a cave DPV diver you should learn how to ride it like a cave diver before you learn bad habits.
It is the same reason why many cave instructors learn to use your primary in your left hand from day 1, so that when you do end up on a DPV you aren't having to relearn habits that should've been instilled early on.
Boarderguy
Chief Narctopus Wrangler
Then all the more reason to not do OW DPV. My class was taken using shop supplied Yamaha scoots. They are toys and nothing more. If cage DPV is the goal then a cave instructor should be his only option. I still think trigger time, and lots of it, will benefit him more than wasting $ on an OW course. His local buddies should be able to set him up correctly and guide him along.
That is why I suggested doing a day with a cave instructor to get sorted out before heading to OW to get trigger time.
OP
Underwater Tourist
Contributor
yeah but the question was about cave dpv
its not about OW dpv being easy or difficult, its about the cave dpv class, that, as I heard from multiple people and read numerous times, can be challenging. The replies I got here also confirmed that, so I will be getting "an extensive" ow dpv course+a bunch of practice dives before going for the cave dpv (100% of my cave dives are also in Mexico, so I don't have the luxury of Floridian flow carrying the silt away)
That would be the best, but none of my friends are even AOWDs.. And then they have the guts to call me a weirdo because of cave diving! Land-dwelling freaks
FlyingSeaMonke
Registered
My wife and I took an OW DPV course to make some of local boats happy. We knew we were going down the cave route so we chose an instructor that did cave dpv and also owned the same model of scoot that we bought (Blacktip Tech).
Scooters are easy enough to use tbh so the in-water instruction was really just a couple fun dives. The real value was the instructor going over some trimming tips and different rigging styles and options. You can find some of that info on SB but I do think in person instruction will accelerate you finding your happy rigging setup.
Was it worth the money? Maybe not, honestly. But it's insignificant compared to what we spend on diving overall (dpvs, drysuits, cave gear and training for 2 is NOT cheap) and we had a nice day diving in Key Largo.
We haven't done Cave DPV yet (finishing full cave in 2 weeks), but I feel the course definitely added something to my DPV skillset that will come in handy when we are ready.
Scooters are easy enough to use tbh so the in-water instruction was really just a couple fun dives. The real value was the instructor going over some trimming tips and different rigging styles and options. You can find some of that info on SB but I do think in person instruction will accelerate you finding your happy rigging setup.
Was it worth the money? Maybe not, honestly. But it's insignificant compared to what we spend on diving overall (dpvs, drysuits, cave gear and training for 2 is NOT cheap) and we had a nice day diving in Key Largo.
We haven't done Cave DPV yet (finishing full cave in 2 weeks), but I feel the course definitely added something to my DPV skillset that will come in handy when we are ready.
So, let's put some oil on the fire.
Wow, it sounds sometimes here as dpv is very very difficult rocket science. It is in my eyes something like sidemount diving or drysuit diving. You can do yourself, you can do a course. But don't take the dpv in a cave on your first dpv dive.
So, be critical to yourself, what kind of diver are you? One that wants to be taken by hand or more an autodidact? This is in my eyes important to make your decision, but it is also important to advice you.
Maybe this is because I started dpv cave diving before there were certs and courses. My ccr buddy for deep dives called me that he wanted to go further in caves. He already had 2 dpv's and was quite rich. He said, I have done now several cave dives with dpv, but you are the better planner for such dives, would you like to join me on such dives? I was not that rich, so he said, I will by another dpv and do you like to try it? I said yes. We did a day in open water were he explained me how it works and a few weeks later we went off to France. And we have done dpv cave dives far in a cave (like starting with the Big 8 in the Ressel) and to 100m depth (Saint Sauveur). We also have done afterwards some nice open water dives and later I used a dpv for other cave dives. I cannot say I learned from a course afterwards. But I am also an autodidact. So I try to find videos, read a lot about things, etc.
But, there is also a big but and then you can consider a course.
DPV diving is for some people difficult. It starts with a proper weighted dpv, not too heavy, not floating too much, or the tail is too light or too heavy, etc. Then, as a diver and here most problems start, is bouyancy. If your bouyancy isn't well, then the dpv makes it more difficult. On every moment in the dive you must be able to stop the dpv and hold your bouyancy. A lot of people have problems with this.
And if this is your problem, the dpv will go everywhere, except the right position. Also with an dpv that is not proper weighted. It is very heavy to pull a working dpv every time down or in the right position because it want's to up because it is not proper balanced.
Also it is important that the towcord had the right length. Too short or too long makes using a dpv hard.
And some people don't have natural control of their fingers, so if they have to take a finger of the trigger, they don't do that.
Another thing you have to consider is a towbar on your harnass. A proper course also includes maintaining the dpv.
In cave diving things like the 3rd dpv are also practised. And of course calculations of gas/bailouts, speed with dpv vs swimming speed, etc etc. All no things you cannot learn on your own, but it makes is more easy if someone with experience explains you and you practise it in a more controlled circumstance (also, who still practises after a course or when doing self teaching? Most divers don't).
Same with self teaching sidemount, you need a camera and adjust after the first dive, adjust after the second dive, etc till it is ok. And then the skill, you need to practise them. In a course you do them at least 1 time in your life.
Also towing another diver is practised in a course. And again, if you do self teaching, you must practise this also.
So using a dpv is more than just a fun toy, it takes some time to get confident with it. And with a dpv it is the same as with ccr or diving in general, some people are confident with it in 1 dive, others need 10-20, or more. Some are naturals, others not.
If you already ask the question here, it seems you are maybe unsure about diving with a dpv. Then a course is the right place. At least you need a good buddy with experience to make the whole way more easy and safer.
And yes, I know there are also self trained cave divers that have done cave rescues, go in extremely far, etc (and funny thing is, also here on scubaboard, nobody complaigns if the names are mentioned, look at the Thai cave rescue). So also there it is maybe possible, but for 99.999% of the divers a cave course will really help. Same with ccr diving, then also a 99.999% have to do a course.
For drysuit it is maybe 50%, for sidemount it is 80, for dpv it is 80-90% a course will be the best option.
But going in a cave with dpv without any dpv experience is not a good idea.
So look at yourself, ask around for advice, analyse the answers you get and make a choice what fits for you. We don't know you, we don't know your experience, we don't know if you are talented or not. Based on your question I would say a course is a good idea.
And I think we will have the same discussions in a couple of years about the dual/bailout ccr courses that are now there. Like we also had in the past about a ccr cave course. I already dove with a bo ccr when there was no course. I figured out most things myself.
Remember with everything there is a first who start doing it and when there is question for it, a course will be written. So a course is not bad, and it can help you for sure. But it is not that nobody can learn it themselves, otherwise the first dpv diver was never born.
But happely we have courses to make things easier and safer.
Wow, it sounds sometimes here as dpv is very very difficult rocket science. It is in my eyes something like sidemount diving or drysuit diving. You can do yourself, you can do a course. But don't take the dpv in a cave on your first dpv dive.
So, be critical to yourself, what kind of diver are you? One that wants to be taken by hand or more an autodidact? This is in my eyes important to make your decision, but it is also important to advice you.
Maybe this is because I started dpv cave diving before there were certs and courses. My ccr buddy for deep dives called me that he wanted to go further in caves. He already had 2 dpv's and was quite rich. He said, I have done now several cave dives with dpv, but you are the better planner for such dives, would you like to join me on such dives? I was not that rich, so he said, I will by another dpv and do you like to try it? I said yes. We did a day in open water were he explained me how it works and a few weeks later we went off to France. And we have done dpv cave dives far in a cave (like starting with the Big 8 in the Ressel) and to 100m depth (Saint Sauveur). We also have done afterwards some nice open water dives and later I used a dpv for other cave dives. I cannot say I learned from a course afterwards. But I am also an autodidact. So I try to find videos, read a lot about things, etc.
But, there is also a big but and then you can consider a course.
DPV diving is for some people difficult. It starts with a proper weighted dpv, not too heavy, not floating too much, or the tail is too light or too heavy, etc. Then, as a diver and here most problems start, is bouyancy. If your bouyancy isn't well, then the dpv makes it more difficult. On every moment in the dive you must be able to stop the dpv and hold your bouyancy. A lot of people have problems with this.
And if this is your problem, the dpv will go everywhere, except the right position. Also with an dpv that is not proper weighted. It is very heavy to pull a working dpv every time down or in the right position because it want's to up because it is not proper balanced.
Also it is important that the towcord had the right length. Too short or too long makes using a dpv hard.
And some people don't have natural control of their fingers, so if they have to take a finger of the trigger, they don't do that.
Another thing you have to consider is a towbar on your harnass. A proper course also includes maintaining the dpv.
In cave diving things like the 3rd dpv are also practised. And of course calculations of gas/bailouts, speed with dpv vs swimming speed, etc etc. All no things you cannot learn on your own, but it makes is more easy if someone with experience explains you and you practise it in a more controlled circumstance (also, who still practises after a course or when doing self teaching? Most divers don't).
Same with self teaching sidemount, you need a camera and adjust after the first dive, adjust after the second dive, etc till it is ok. And then the skill, you need to practise them. In a course you do them at least 1 time in your life.
Also towing another diver is practised in a course. And again, if you do self teaching, you must practise this also.
So using a dpv is more than just a fun toy, it takes some time to get confident with it. And with a dpv it is the same as with ccr or diving in general, some people are confident with it in 1 dive, others need 10-20, or more. Some are naturals, others not.
If you already ask the question here, it seems you are maybe unsure about diving with a dpv. Then a course is the right place. At least you need a good buddy with experience to make the whole way more easy and safer.
And yes, I know there are also self trained cave divers that have done cave rescues, go in extremely far, etc (and funny thing is, also here on scubaboard, nobody complaigns if the names are mentioned, look at the Thai cave rescue). So also there it is maybe possible, but for 99.999% of the divers a cave course will really help. Same with ccr diving, then also a 99.999% have to do a course.
For drysuit it is maybe 50%, for sidemount it is 80, for dpv it is 80-90% a course will be the best option.
But going in a cave with dpv without any dpv experience is not a good idea.
So look at yourself, ask around for advice, analyse the answers you get and make a choice what fits for you. We don't know you, we don't know your experience, we don't know if you are talented or not. Based on your question I would say a course is a good idea.
And I think we will have the same discussions in a couple of years about the dual/bailout ccr courses that are now there. Like we also had in the past about a ccr cave course. I already dove with a bo ccr when there was no course. I figured out most things myself.
Remember with everything there is a first who start doing it and when there is question for it, a course will be written. So a course is not bad, and it can help you for sure. But it is not that nobody can learn it themselves, otherwise the first dpv diver was never born.
But happely we have courses to make things easier and safer.
Any quality training is useful. A DPV cave class is not the class to familiarize yourself with a DPV. You should start a cave DPV class with very solid cave diving skills and experience and very solid DPV skills.
A DPV class that's is just a rundown of how pull the trigger might have limited benefits. But if your DPV class learn you how to handle the DPV, deal with a runaway DPV, fix entanglements, tow a dpv and buddy, gas sharing then your are in a much better position before a cave DPV class.
If you know this (and are good at that) then fine-tuning your towing skills, learning proper DPV gas management and DPV battery time calculations, and using more than two stages is going to be much easier to learn in the Cave DPV class.
I don't think its feasible leaning all that without significant prior DPV experience. You can ofc learn those skills without a class, but that will take you much more time. DPV classes was not a thing when i started DPV diving so i had to learn it myself. In hindsight having a knowledgeable instructor teaching you all the things you didn't know you needed to know would have been neat.
Free tip for your DPV journey. Learn to stretch out your legs and fins and keep them together when on the DPV. Lots of people never learn this and drive around with their fins high up and legs wide apart
A DPV class that's is just a rundown of how pull the trigger might have limited benefits. But if your DPV class learn you how to handle the DPV, deal with a runaway DPV, fix entanglements, tow a dpv and buddy, gas sharing then your are in a much better position before a cave DPV class.
If you know this (and are good at that) then fine-tuning your towing skills, learning proper DPV gas management and DPV battery time calculations, and using more than two stages is going to be much easier to learn in the Cave DPV class.
I don't think its feasible leaning all that without significant prior DPV experience. You can ofc learn those skills without a class, but that will take you much more time. DPV classes was not a thing when i started DPV diving so i had to learn it myself. In hindsight having a knowledgeable instructor teaching you all the things you didn't know you needed to know would have been neat.
Free tip for your DPV journey. Learn to stretch out your legs and fins and keep them together when on the DPV. Lots of people never learn this and drive around with their fins high up and legs wide apart
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