Can't hover upright...

[RobM77]

First of all, I’ve just joined the forum, so hello to everyone

I’m currently learning to dive with a PADI Open Water course. I’m absolutely loving it, and so far have done a DSD and four pool dives. I’ve already completed all of my skills and tests successfully, so spent the last dive just practising, and will just practise again for my next and final confined water dive. Everything’s going brilliantly, but I just have one problem: I can’t hover upright. I can swim neutrally buoyant, and fin pivot (although I have some trouble keeping my feet on the floor), but when I move upright, perhaps to watch my
instructor or signal to someone, I just roll over backwards. I’ve tried putting all my weight right at the front of my weight belt, and experimenting with different tank heights, and it all makes a slight difference; but even at the best I can get it, every time I stop swimming and transition to upright it feels like someone’s just pulling me over backwards and within a few seconds I’m half upside down.

I’m wearing a 5mm full wetsuit (I’m quite skinny and start shivering in anything less), 4kg of weight and I’m not sure of the tank size, but it’s quite a large one. What I presume is that my relatively light weight and very buoyant wetsuit are not balancing out the heavy weight of the tank enough. I think that’s the problem, but what can I do to resolve it? Given that at one end of the scale people sometimes dive with two or even three tanks, and at the other end of the scale there are plenty of people lighter than me diving with a tank like the one I use, there must be a fairly simple solution? I don’t see people diving upside down all the time!

Any ideas? I look forward to reading your thoughts.

 

[Mayor]

Why would you want to hover vertical in the water? Venting out you BC at the start of the dive as you desend then drop into a horizontal trim position. Venting should be done with dump valves and not the inflator hose. This will keep you in a trim position and slick in the water. Also if you think you can hover why are you doing skills on the bottom. Hang a few inches above and do them. Now that would be a skill.

 

[RobM77]

Thanks for your reply. I've not dived in Open Water yet, so I don't know how often I'll want to be vertical; it's good to hear that it's not a very common requirement though, that's a relief. Would I perhaps need to be vertical to compare SPGs with my buddy or perhaps point at a map, slate, compass etc? Currently all of our communications and skills are done vertically and I can't manage them unless I dump air and kneel on the bottom straight away, otherwise I just start rolling backwards. Also, how about ascending and descending? The pool's not deep enough for me to know if I can stay vertical when doing that yet...

It just frustrates me a little that I don't have full control. I've learnt how to go up and down, and obviously I can swim and move in different directions too, but to not be balanced front/rear I find quite off-putting.

 

[Maldivesdivingspecial]

Hi Rob 77

A few things may effect here;
1.Your breathing technique- If your are breathing in too deep and exhaling too slow your lungs fills up and the the air is lifting you up but at the same time the weights of your weight belt and tank are pulling you down making you turn. or flip backwards or to a side.
It could be solve if you not breath too deep and exhale out a bit faster making sure that your lungs are completely empty.
A good breathing technique will be to breath in NORMAL Most people tend to take a normal breath and even when the lungs are full they still keep breathing in.You only use about a 1/3 of your lung when you breath normally or Naturally.
why change it underwater? So try breathing Naturally how you are meant to with a pause at the end of each exhale.

A Natural breath cycle is " Inhale till lungs are filled and then immediately exhale and a slight pause after exhale". TRY THIS! Find a place to sit relax and cover your mouth and nose with your hand and listen to your breathing if you need to close your eyes do so. Please take a few minutes for this because at first you wont breath like how you normally breath because you are conscious of it! Give your self a good 5 minutes.you will hear yourself breath like how I was explaining and try to do exactly the same in the water. If you do this you will see you are too heavy in the water then you can cut down your weights or change your tank.Another thing is in fresh water you are heavier so you would need less weights.

2.Normally 12 Litres tanks are used and if it is a steel tank' the tank itself has already about the weights equivalent to about 3 to 4 kg so you are actually having about 7 or 8 kg. It might make a difference if you change to an Aluminum tank. It helped me! when I dive with a steel tank I'm also flipped to upside down like you.

3. If your boots are too thick and the boots and the suit legs are overlapping there is more than 5mm on your ankles which makes the leg go upwards.which contributes to the turning problem you are having.you either try without booties to full foot fins or somehow attach about 300grams of led to each fin with a cable tie or something.

Give this ago
Let me know how it goes.
maldivesdivingspecialist
hassan@maldivesdivingpsecialist.com

 

[DivemasterDennis]

There are plenty of reasons you want to have complete body control in the water, including a vertical hover: taking photos, safety stop, looking in a recessed area, etc. If you buoyancy is otherwise good, then weight distribution is an issue. However, it seems to me you may be just a little overweighted, depending on you your body type and size. "Play" with different configurations in the pool. Also, try reducing the weight you are using. Properly weighted and configured, you should be able to hove in any position. If you are overweighted you will have excess air in your bc, and the location of that air will affect you hover positions. So also try "rolling" from time to time, moving the air that is in the bc. I am sure you will resolve the problem primarily through proper weighting and proper configuration of weight.
DivemasterDennis

 

[japan-diver]

There are numerous things that can be causing the problem- the answer is ask your instructor for help- thats what you are paying him for. Although there are some very experienced instructors on this board without us seeing you in the water it is impossible to accurately diagnose the problem over the internet and probably a great disservice to your instructor who is right in front of you and would have a much better idea of what is going on than the best instructor guessing the problem over the internet.

 

[RobM77]

Wow - what a fantastic response. Thanks for all your suggestions. I can't rule out anything above, and some seem very likely (e.g. breathing), so they're all things to try - thanks. I have asked my instructor and DM, and both have no ideas beyond fiddling with weight and tank location, which we've already tweaked as much as we can, thus the forum post to see if anyone can think of anything else (which you have done!).

I've got one more confined water dive and then my OW dives in Malaysia in March followed by some more dives there. I'll post back and let you know how I get on.

PS - A friend of mine from work says that a different design of BCD may help - one that inflates at the back (i.e. supporting the tank) rather than round my sides. Sounds plausible to me?

 

[g1138]

Be more rigid but still allow yourself to be fluid. Chances are you're relaxing your legs, core, and abs too much and allowing the tank's weight to tilt you past the point of no return.
Also make sure your legs aren't spread out in front of you like a teddy bear.

Keep in mind that there's no reason why you shouldn't view your instructor while you're horizontal. =P
Most people have the opposite problem and would gladly trade with you.

 

[TSandM]

The ability to remain motionless in a given position in the water is simple physics. You will always tend to rotate until the most negative mass is under the center of lift. If you don't want to end up in that position, you have only a few options: use your fins or hands to stop the rotation (which is not the motionless hover); change the positioning of body parts which can move (bend legs, move arms) which may or may not have enough effect to counter the major influences of tank and BC; or move weights around to change the static balance, which may or may not be effective, depending on which tank you are using and how much weight you need to carry.

Most of us optimize our equipment for a horizontal hover, because horizontal is the most efficient position in the water. I know that I cannot hover in a vertical position in my cold water setup -- I have to scull. I don't care, because I have never been in a position where I needed to be vertical in the water. Diving a wall, it may be pleasant to be somewhat head up at times, but I like to be able to kick myself backward from the wall if I want, and that requires being horizontal.

Would I perhaps need to be vertical to compare SPGs with my buddy or perhaps point at a map, slate, compass etc? Currently all of our communications and skills are done vertically and I can't manage them unless I dump air and kneel on the bottom straight away, otherwise I just start rolling backwards

I find this a little sad, especially in view of discussions we have here about teaching methods. There is NO need to go vertical to look at SPGs, or look at a map or slate, or write a note to your buddy. All of those things can be neatly and comfortably done in a horizontal position. Why not? You are floating, head back, looking at your buddy, you pull up the slate, write on it, and hand it to your buddy, who also just hangs there, pleasantly horizontal, and reads it.

By the end of our OW classes, most of our students can do the things you are talking about, with out stress, in a horizontal position. There is no reason why you can't do that, too!

 

[Kern]

PS - A friend of mine from work says that a different design of BCD may help - one that inflates at the back (i.e. supporting the tank) rather than round my sides. Sounds plausible to me?

If your vertical, it's anything but plausible.