Can you be DIR if you are not GUE-trained?

[detroit diver]

Arnaud once bubbled...
GUE is an agency. DIR is a diving style/approach/philosophy. In the end, we're all divers, some better than others.

Now, what I wonder: If being DIR was just a matter of being certified by GUE, why wouldn't GUE be named DIR?

Simply put, it's a whole lot more than DIR Fundamentals classes.

Check out their website: www.gue.com

 

[Arnaud]

detroit diver once bubbled...


Simply put, it's a whole lot more than DIR Fundamentals classes.

Check out their website: www.gue.com

But DIR isn't limited to the DIRF course, is it? It's applied every step of the way.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think DIR is proprietary to GUE. I don't want to make a big deal out of this because I'm clearly less knowledgeable than some of you, but I did read the DIRF manual. I didn't see any claim that GUE owned the concept.

In theory, DIR could even become a PADI specialty course

 

[kingprawn]

Arnaud once bubbled...

In theory, DIR could even become a PADI specialty course

I want to see PADI do that!!!!!
PADI instructor: Today class, we are going to teach techniques that are different from everything else we have tought you.


I agree with UP and Spectre.

BPs, wings and stage bottles have been around long before DIR. And I image DIR was around before JJ formed GUE. The team at WKRP (GI, JJ et al) were not GUE.

This is all like saying “you can’t be Baptist if you were not baptized”. (Intentional religion reference).

I applaud GI, JJ and the rest, for standardizing a group of diving principals that they believed made diving safer. At the WKKP the statistics seemed to prove them out.

I applaud GUE for trying to improve the level of training available to the serious diver. Teaching new skills and ideas to improve the diver’s safety.

Bottom line, am I diving DIR? No, I’m diving the safest SCUBA I know how. Are some of the DIR techniques included? Yes. Do I disagree with some of the “decrees”? Yes. Am I going to pump a 2640 PSI tank to 4000 PSI and say that I’m a safer diver? NO.

 

[Epinephelus]

King Kong Matt once bubbled...
So deep...yet so worthless...

Answer my question, Matt, and I'll answer yours. Your comment above is, indeed, worthless, and contributes nothing to useful discussion.
As I understand it, "DIR" is copyrighted by Halcyon and can't be legally applied to anyone else's equipment.
E. itajara

 

[Beachman]

As with many threads treating this subject on several boards, this one is like a catholic discussing religion with a baptist, or a jew with an islamic. Never a meeting of the minds and no one will ever convice the other.

In the dive shop you can tell a GUE and/or DIRF diver when they walk in the door. Frequently they use overkill for the dive, or they obviously have little real experience and are not equipped adequately for the tough dive. But I guarantee you, they are confident they are right either way!

DIR for me is doing it, learning from all knowledgeable sources, improving over time, being a bit lucky, being cautious, and finding what makes sense for you. And, of course, surviving to improve another day.

The best training is from respecting other divers with different experiences from your own and diving, diving, diving.

Personally, I think I'm DIR becasuse I'm still here......lots of dives, lots of conditions, lots of environments, slowly adding and making changes to my gear, learning (I hope) all the time. I'm not so sure my mask clearing technique is an A+ for "demonstration quality", but it's sure worked for me a kjillion times. Not sure my gear is DIR, but sure hasn't let me down yet.

I'm still here. Guess I must be DSR...Doing Something Right.

DSAO

P.S. This thread is worse than the Veggie thread! (Can you be GUE and DVR.....Doing Veggies Right?)

 

[MikeFerrara]

kingprawn once bubbled...


I want to see PADI do that!!!!!
PADI instructor: Today class, we are going to teach techniques that are different from everything else we have tought you.

Actually a PADI instructor can write an outline for a class, have it approved and then teach it. There isn't much in a DIRF that's any different from what we teach every day. That might be one reason I can't fill a DIRF with the divers from our shop. The problem is that everything I teach must be within the standards of an existing class. As a result some things like liftbag deployment I can't teach outside of an Ädvanced Nitrox course. Also I certainly can't teach divers to use average depths when using tables. We even have most of the outline. The only problem left is a name for the course and finding a way to sell it to one of the agencies we teach for.

Anyway the point is I discussed this very subject on the phone with JJ about a year and a half ago. I was led to believe that "DIR" is a proprietary term. Now with OMS using the term I wonder.

I applaud GI, JJ and the rest, for standardizing a group of diving principals that they believed made diving safer. At the WKKP the statistics seemed to prove them out.

I agree but many projects have perfect safety records. What they don't have is a cave long enough for multiple world records, the publicity, the money or hords of people to shlep gear.

I applaud GUE for trying to improve the level of training available to the serious diver. Teaching new skills and ideas to improve the diver’s safety.

Again I agree but they're not new skills. What they are is skills that are usually reserved for tech and cave divers. I certainly won't argue the fact that GUE does it very well and thus far has been able to maintain high standards. The industry has decided that all the recreational diver needs or wants to know is how to breath while walking along viewing the reef under supervision.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Until you define your terms, you'll just go in endless circles.
As Epinephelus has said, the question can't be answered without defining your terms. "DIR," since it stands for the regular simple words "Doing It Right," causes endless confusion and argument because whenever you ask a question like "is it DIR to ...?" you must, if you really want an accurate answer, define whether you mean "DIR" as defined by GUE and Halcyon, or "Doing It Right" as in, simply, "is it safe, sound, efficient and does it get the job done?"
And I totally agree that one can "DO IT RIGHT" without ever crossing paths with GUE, Halcyon, backplates, long hoses or horizontal ascents. GUE's "DIR" is "Doing It Right" - but it is only one of many ways to "Do It Right."
A real quick way to broaden your horizons (for those of you who insist that GUE's "DIR" is the only way to "Do It Right") is to take Cathy Church's photography course.
------------------
Just to add to the confusion (and to clarify Epinephelus' point), although PADI could teach a "Doing it right" specialty, PADI can't teach a "DIR" specialty because the term ("DIR") is indeed the property of Halcyon. (GUE can use "DIR" because GUE and Halcyon are Siamese twins)
Rick

 

[detroit diver]

Beachman once bubbled...
As with many threads treating this subject on several boards, this one is like a catholic discussing religion with a baptist, or a jew with an islamic. Never a meeting of the minds and no one will ever convice the other.

I completely disagree. If you follow the threads on Scubaboard, you'll find a number of people that have changed because of these discussions.

In the dive shop you can tell a GUE and/or DIRF diver when they walk in the door. Frequently they use overkill for the dive, or they obviously have little real experience and are not equipped adequately for the tough dive. But I guarantee you, they are confident they are right either way!

And you can ascertain that they are GUE or have taken DIRF because of what? BP and long hose? That doesn't cut it. You can't tell anything by looking at them. And they cant' tell anything about you either.

DIR for me is doing it, learning from all knowledgeable sources, improving over time, being a bit lucky, being cautious, and finding what makes sense for you. And, of course, surviving to improve another day.

The best training is from respecting other divers with different experiences from your own and diving, diving, diving.

Personally, I think I'm DIR becasuse I'm still here......lots of dives, lots of conditions, lots of environments, slowly adding and making changes to my gear, learning (I hope) all the time. I'm not so sure my mask clearing technique is an A+ for "demonstration quality", but it's sure worked for me a kjillion times. Not sure my gear is DIR, but sure hasn't let me down yet.

That's why you have no clue what DIR is. It is not picking and choosing what you want and then diving the way that you want. It's not a BP and harness. It's a whole system and mindset.

You can call whatever you dive whatever you want, but it's not DIR by any shape or form. DIR is a specific set of rules and guidelines. It's not "I'm doing it right 'cause I'm still alive". Lucky? DIR isn't about lucky. It's about avoiding having to be lucky. All bases are covered.

You use the word lucky and survival a lot.

I'm still here. Guess I must be DSR...Doing Something Right.

DSAO

P.S. This thread is worse than the Veggie thread! (Can you be GUE and DVR.....Doing Veggies Right?)

[

 

[detroit diver]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
......
Just to add to the confusion (and to clarify Epinephelus' point), although PADI could teach a "Doing it right" specialty, PADI can't teach a "DIR" specialty because the term ("DIR") is indeed the property of Halcyon. (GUE can use "DIR" because GUE and Halcyon are Siamese twins)
Rick

I think part of the problem is that DIR is NOT a registered trademark of GUE, Halycon, or anyone for that matter.

 

[Spectre]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As a result some things like liftbag deployment I can't teach outside of an Ädvanced Nitrox course.

Huh? What's this mean Mike?